Ford Transit 2.2l Diesel

[GeorgeR]

Originally Posted by Roger C H

I just shake my head when the Gov't mandates 54 mpg CAFE standards. Despite all the hype, mileage has NOT improved all that much.

My first car was a 1959 TR10 Triumph Estate Wagon. I got 36mpg at 65, 32mpg around town, and once when purposely driving at 50mph over 40 mpg.

TR10

I presently have an almost identical car, a 2001 VW Golf which gets about the same mileage. Of course these cars do not make good tow vehicles.

In actuality the technology progress is rather phenomenal if it would be measured in horsepower only. Your Triumph likely had 40 HP. I have Opel Astra 1.4l 90HP and average (city + highway) at 40mpg. My Jetta Diesel has 100HP and gets good MPG.
My wife and I just test drove Subaru Outback with 256HP and 18-25MPG. These horsepower must to come from somewhere, so MPG suffers. As long market values HP more than MPG we will be getting low MPG cars, just physics of our Universe.
Conversations with salespeople are infuriatingly frustrating, we asked for fuel consumption and get answers in (but, but, but) horsepower.

George.

[Frederick L. Simson]

Originally Posted by Roger C H

I just shake my head when the Gov't mandates 54 mpg CAFE standards.

Corporate Average Fuel Economy

Starting in 2011 the CAFE standards are newly expressed as mathematical functions depending on vehicle "footprint", a measure of vehicle size determined by multiplying the vehicle’s wheelbase by its average track width. CAFE footprint requirements are set up such that a vehicle with a bigger footprint has a lower fuel economy requirement than a vehicle with a smaller footprint.

I think they recognize that some of us require larger vehicles than others. Doesn't "Corporate Average" take into account more light duty passenger cars than heavy duty tow vehicles are sold?

[BCDave]

Originally Posted by GeorgeR

In actuality the technology progress is rather phenomenal if it would be measured in horsepower only. Your Triumph likely had 40 HP. I have Opel Astra 1.4l 90HP and average (city + highway) at 40mpg. My Jetta Diesel has 100HP and gets good MPG.
My wife and I just test drove Subaru Outback with 256HP and 18-25MPG. These horsepower must to come from somewhere, so MPG suffers. As long market values HP more than MPG we will be getting low MPG cars, just physics of our Universe.
Conversations with salespeople are infuriatingly frustrating, we asked for fuel consumption and get answers in (but, but, but) horsepower.

George.

Car salesmen are actually interior decorators. (Just feel that fabric. Oh this color exactly matches your eyes, ma'm. You will look SO good in this...)

DO NOT (EVER!!!) expect them to know anything mechanical about the cars. the customers don't want to know that stuff, so the salesman has long ago learned to never mention it - it makes the customer's eyes glaze over and (s)he will lose the sale. Customers want to know mileage - salesman looks on the sheet in the window and reads it to you. However HORSEPOWER SELLS!!! So they come up with some really neat numbers for that! Salesperson will open hood and ask YOU if this is a 6 or a V8?

That salesman possibly sold shoes at a department store last week/month - cars are commodities, not anything important. Color is important. Horsepower is important. Electronic gizmos are important (gotta have Blue Teeth!) Self-parking will seal the deal.

Do not expect anything to change until people change. Here in North America the sheeple will spend weeks looking for a pair of jeans, but will make the second-largest purchase of their lives based on its color and whether or not it has self parking.

[gmw photos]

In the rumor mill regarding trucks, there is talk of Nissan putting a Cummins 4 cyl diesel in the Titan. Claim is 28mpg. They already have two different diesel options in the Frontier ( the model is called Navarra over there ) in Europe, Australasia, and pac rim. A four cyl and a 3.0 v-6.
I've heard at least some rumbling they will bring the four cyl Navarra/Frontier to the NA market. Dang it ! ..... I want the 3.0 V-6 with the six speed manual ! 401 lb-ft torque and 30 mpg. Sigh.
My bet is if the bring the diesel Titan to market, they will not do the smaller Frontier line as well....at least not right away.

Norm, I know you mentioned "saving x dollars" by going diesel powered. Have you considered "all" of the associated costs of it ? Higher initial buy in cost, and higher maintenance costs come to mind.

george

[honda03842]

George,

I am no expert in this area of diesel engines but am reading all I can find because we are about 2-3 years from a new vehicle. We had planned to keep our 2004 Honda for 10 years.

I think the big savings is going with a comparitively small tow vehicle. Many people on the site tow with vehicles that get 15 mpg while we get 23 mpg. Our goal is to get a vehicle capable of 30 mpg when towing and this seems to be possible with a 2 Liter diesel.

Of course many think our present tow vehicle choice is foolish. However many people tow happily with Outbacks, a similarly sized vehicle.

A primary concern is deseil vehicle reliability. Our CRV after 160,000 miles has been virtually cost free besides wear items and oil changes. If Honda introduced their diesel I'd buy it in a minute, I'm a little more cautious with VW and Mazda; I'll watch their reliability record and join their forums to get a feel for user comments.

For someone who tows 10,000 miles per year and drives another 10,000 miles the difference between 15/20 mpg and 30/42 mpg (Towing/non-towing) amounts to about $3,000 a year at around $5 per gallon. No one will be surprised if fuel exceed $5 this year and during the next decade we can only guess. At $7 a gallon this quickly moves to $5,000 a year for fuel. My goal is to be on the road for at least the next 10 years.

As to vehicle reliability, a diesel engine should out live a petrol engine. The big maintenance difference seems to be more frequent oil changes with more expensive oil. The new small diseils do not require emissions additives, at least that's the case with Honda, Mazda and VW. One thing I have against the VW is that the timing belt has to be replaced at 60,000 miles, seems foolish when Honda belts now last the life of the engine.

As to initial cost differential I suspect it will be about 10% of the cost of the vehicle, that would quickly be recovered, probably in the first year.

As to higher maintenance costs, I guess I have the Honda mindset, we haven't had any costs other than oil changes, brake pads, tires and spak plugs. Maybe I'm spoilled.

Of course, if the Honda would keep going for another 10 years, it would be cheaper to keep the Honda and certainly that is a possibility. Our 1997 is still being driven by our niece with over 300,000 miles on it.

So far on this trip we have spent $1,700 on gas averaging $3.50/gallon, by the end of the trip we will have spent $3,500-4,000, about $400 a month. These numbers may be on the low side because so far we have averaged $3.50 a gallon; our last purchase in Yuma, AZ was $3.91.

With all these thoughts I will say they are secondary to the wonderful time we're having on the road, particularly all we're learning. Yuma is a marvelously interesting town that grows a significant percentage of the country's food supply even though it gets only 3 inches of rain a year.

Loving the road......

[GeorgeR]

Originally Posted by honda03842

............................One thing I have against the VW is that the timing belt has to be replaced at 60,000 miles, seems foolish when Honda belts now last the life of the engine..................................

Actually the VW manual recommends to change it every 100K miles but to inspect at 80K miles. Most folks change the timing belt at 80K because work required to just check is significant and actual checking is rather doubtful.

Changing the belt has 2 steps, first to replace it and then to tune its tension in final alignment step. This second step is time consuming, a hit and miss process. It requires stretching the belt to “some degree, not too much but more than too little”, tighten bolts and check after rotating the engine twice. If special tools can’t go into right holes “easily”, repeat the process. I did it 5 times by the time I got it right. Would VW mechanics follow this process would always be my question if I would drop the car in their hands.

TDI timing belt is my major deterrent of buying VW TDI again. I think new TDI belt changing intervals are the same.

My next car, truck, or van most likely diesel will likely have "back to the past" timing chain. New Subaru Outlook 6 cylinder engine has timing chain and 4 cylinder has timing belt which is unfortunate because I would prefer timing chain on 4 cylinders which is the only one I would buy.

George.

[BCDave]

Originally Posted by gmw photos

In the rumor mill regarding trucks, there is talk of Nissan putting a Cummins 4 cyl diesel in the Titan. Claim is 28mpg. They already have two different diesel options in the Frontier ( the model is called Navarra over there ) in Europe, Australasia, and pac rim. A four cyl and a 3.0 v-6.
I've heard at least some rumbling they will bring the four cyl Navarra/Frontier to the NA market. Dang it ! ..... I want the 3.0 V-6 with the six speed manual ! 401 lb-ft torque and 30 mpg. Sigh.
My bet is if the bring the diesel Titan to market, they will not do the smaller Frontier line as well....at least not right away.

Norm, I know you mentioned "saving x dollars" by going diesel powered. Have you considered "all" of the associated costs of it ? Higher initial buy in cost, and higher maintenance costs come to mind.

george

Just remember that Chrysler has an ironclad contract with Cummins that is VERY specific is stating that Cummins engines cannot appear in ANY other make of light truck sold in any market where the Dodge Rams are sold

[Lizbeth]

All I've got to say about this is... a Grand Cherokee with a diesel?

[GeorgeR]

Originally Posted by Lizbeth

All I've got to say about this is... a Grand Cherokee with a diesel?

It is coming most likely by 2013, but no date yet. The bad news it could be optioned at $40K minimum. Hopefully Fiat/Chrysler learned on their mistake of not good enough gas mileage of Fiat 500 and will bring high gas mileage Grand Cherokee tuned for fuel mileage not for lots of Power.
George.

[Ed Harris]

My Sprinter regularly get me 25-27 around town and towing seems to drop to about 22 in the limited testing I have done.

Mine is the T1N and the "Baby" size so take that for what it is worth.
I am very satisfied with it considering it is 6500lbs just for the Sprinter with my typical workday junk and then it seems to tow the 17' Casita without issue so far.

I am thinking of driving it to the Fish Fry this year to see how it does on a little longer journey and the extra space for junk will be nice too!

[gmw photos]

Originally Posted by BCDave

Just remember that Chrysler has an ironclad contract with Cummins that is VERY specific is stating that Cummins engines cannot appear in ANY other make of light truck sold in any market where the Dodge Rams are sold

I wondered about that.
To me it would make more sense for Nissan to simply use the diesel engines they are already using in other markets. It's my understanding that the V6 was developed by, and is possibly manufactured by Renault. I don't know about the four cyl.

Norm....yes, you are spoiled by Honda ! LOL ..... everybody that owns a Honda typically gets spoiled by them. I've had six Honda cars and eight Honda motorcycles since 1971. All good.

As far as "extra maintenance" on a diesel, I'm going to say something here that is probably controversial, but I'll say it anyway: anything with a turbo ( gas or diesel ) is very likely going to have the added cost of replacing a turbo if you keep it "long term". Turbos are typically a problem child. And that is true whether talking about cars or class 8 trucks. The fact is a turbo leads a hard life, so they are just not very reliable. Figure at best, somewhere between 100K and 200K miles, you'll have that expense. It can be rather costly.

Now then....before all the turbocharger fanboys jump down my throat....save it....sorry, I don't wanna hear it. Talk to guys that work on this stuff. My son's best friend is a mechanic here at the Detroit/Allison shop....so I've talked to him about it, and a friend of mine is an engineer in charge of warranty issues for Kenworth. He and I have discussed it as well.

My personal experience with it has been a failed turbo on the F-350 powerstroke.....but I'll call it a fluke failure since it happened at just 28K miles. Ford covered it under warranty.

Bottom line is, I think some folks buy diesels thinking it's a huge advantage from an operational cost standpoint, but they don't always factor in all the variables. Norm sounds like the kind of guy that does a lot of homework before he writes a check, so I suspect he has considered all of this.
I have to admit I kinda like a diesel.....in spite of it's shortcomings, there are undeniable advantages. When you stand on the loud pedal, the turbo spools up and it starts moving....it's a pretty cool thing......

....on the other hand, my gas powered Frontier with the little 3800 pound camper hooked to it, pulls along fine too. Decisions, decisions....

[honda03842]

I should have mentioned that a VW includes 3 years of service.

[GeorgeR]

Some statistics could shed a better light on turbo life vs. personal or friends experiences. My truck 7.3l had to have the original turbo replace in the first 1000 miles but I would consider it as just an infancy fluke. If you search for “diesel turbo life expectancy” not much surfaces.

This is TDI data: Turbo Life Expectancy - TDIClub Forums

International claims B10 life expectancy at 200,000 miles and B50 at 350,000 miles for T444 engine which is Ford’s 7.3l. (B10 means 90% survival rate and B50 50% survival rate) International T 444E Specifications

This is interesting analysis comparing 7.3l to human life.
Life Expectancy Curves... Human vs Stock 7.3L - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

I don’t think diesels are flawless; complexity of direct injection is very high. Use of piezo vs. solenoid injector actuation, operating at over 20,000 PSI with possibility of controlling either the valve stroke or number of injection per firing cycle is very complex, expensive to make and very expensive to diagnose and repair.

Gas engine are getting complex as well, direct injection (DI) into firing chamber is not trivial and is more expensive than indirect injection due to higher pressures. There are reports of carbon buildups on intake valves using this DI technology which is still very new. I am certain that engineers will solve gas DI problems. My point is that engine technologies are not getting simpler and picking on turbo which is really mature could be unfair for diesel engines.

We all have particular issues which tend to be predominant during purchasing decision, I have problem with timing belts, others with turbo.

George.

[honda03842]

Floyd do you have Ford's tow package for your Escape? What does it consist of?

Thank you,

Norm

[GeorgeR]

After selling our trailer and the overkill F350 PSD I am watching like a hawk what is coming to the market and regarding big or small van it it a good news, but, I have seen good news before.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...-gets-makeover

George.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Floyd do you have Ford's tow package for your Escape? What does it consist of?

Thank you,

Norm

Ford did not offer a factory tow package for the Escape when equipped with a manual transmission.(dealer installed option only)
The V6 (automatic only) offered a tow package with a 3500lb rating which consisted of a Class II hitch, a 4plug, and trans cooler. Of course, you can't tow above 3000# legally in most states without adding an electric brake controller(or surge brakes). The Escape(like most of it's competitors) does not offer a factory controller.The chassis and suspension components on all 2008 Escapes are the same regardless of drive line choice.


My Escape towing package includes a Class III hitch(on the Ford mounting points), A trailer lighting package, trailer battery charge capability, Prodigy electric brake controller,upgraded tires and brake pads. also an extended mirror. The car already has more than adequate cooling and charging systems.


NOTE: 2012 marks the last year for the current Escape. The 2013 Escape is a whole new car which offers several 4CYL options(no V6) and sadly no manual trans. There will still be a 3500lb tow rating available though.(2.0L Eco-boost)

[BCDave]

Originally Posted by GeorgeR

After selling our trailer and the overkill F350 PSD I am watching like a hawk what is coming to the market and regarding big or small van it it a good news, but, I have seen good news before.

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...-gets-makeover

George.

The grille on that Nissan makes it look more like a Ford than most Fords do......

[gmw photos]

Originally Posted by BCDave

The grille on that Nisan makes it look more like a Ford than most Fords do......

Ha ! ...yes, you're right Dave.

It's going to be interesting to watch the sales of the Nissan. It's not going to be high mpg vehicle. They are putting either the V6 from my Frontier in it, or the 5.6 V8 from the Titan. The 4.0 V6 gets "pretty good" mileage, but not what I would call "great fuel econ". It's tuned more for power and torque than it is for outright fuel economy.

The 5.6 Titan V8 likes fuel. You won't find many Titan owners that brag about their fuel economy !

The Nissan van can be had though with seating for 15, and IIRC, a tow cap of close to 9K pounds. It might appeal to folks that have a whole herd of kids and a pretty good sized travel trailer. Budget plenty of $$ for gas though.....

george

[Jim Bennett]

I wish that Ford would bring the new Ranger to North America with its two different diesel offerings. The 3.2 liter diesel can carry 3,368 pounds, and as a tow rating of 7,385 pounds. They also offer a 2.2 liter diesel, but not sure of its capacities. I just read a review on the 3.2.

[dylanear]

I would love a Legacy Outback Diesel, the car form factor (Do not like tall vehicles) with the wagon's room, high ground clearance and rough road capability of the Outback package and a efficient diesel??? Perfection.

But I do love a good Mazda, the SkyActive engines are supposedly amazing. A 54MPG CX-5 does look mighty interesting!

http://www.slashgear.com/mazda-cx-5-review-26230122/