Full-timing w/4cyl SUV (rated 5000#); tow 16/17' (max ~3500#) or should stick to 13'?

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by Justus C

Before you get too hung up on those percentages...

My understanding is that turbo engines suffer a steeper hit to fuel economy when towing than a non-turbo engine with comparable output, but that's based solely on a comparison of the F-150 ecoboost engines vs the V8.

Agree. Insisting on some arbitrary percentage is a crude measure. Some manufacturers and models have lots of margin built into the rating, others, not so much. In the absence of actual towing experience with a particular vehicle, though, starting out somewhere below 100% of the rating seems wise.

I do know that reports from other turbo-4 crossovers have been somewhat disappointing when towing close to the rating (thinking of the Escape 2.0EB with 16’ Scamps in particular). I would personally be conservative with this vehicle as well.

I also concur that turbos take a steeper hit. That’s the whole point of a turbo. Burn lots of gas only when you need to, and sip gas when you don’t. In general, the higher the percentage of towing miles versus non-towing, the less benefit you’ll get from a small displacement turbo. But unless you tow commercially, you probably drive far more miles without the trailer than with. Even full-timers often park for days or weeks at a time.

[k0wtz]

jon not in my case. I could smell things were not right with our Ford Edge. I knew better as soon as I moved it to S things suddenly got better and with this car I would not trust any fail-safes. When I got my transmission fluid change done my mechanic told me the new transmissions are very expensive to fix.

I would just about be that Volvo has more than enough transmission to handle that camper.

bob

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

Maybe, maybe not. Newer transmissions typically have failsafes that will give warning or even shut things down into a limp mode when transmission temperatures get too high. Better not to let that happen, but late model vehicles generally won’t let you “cook” the transmission.

“Never use overdrive when towing” dates from early days when overdrives were flimsy tacked-on affairs. Nowadays overdrive gears (often two or three) are no different than the rest and transmission control software is much more sophisticated. In many cases it’s perfectly fine to keep it in D let the transmission select the right gear. Some even have a tow mode setting that adjusts shift patterns for pulling a trailer.

Consult your owner’s manual for recommended use of the transmission when towing. Mine says to lock out overdrive on hills (up or down). On steep grades I occasionally have to manually shift into an even lower gear. It’s all in the manual.

[Jon in AZ]

I don’t question your experience, Bob. I’d be more interested to hear what your owner’s manual says. Also not sure what “S” means... Second? Sport?

One additional factor I have encountered with Ford crossovers is a low frontal area limit. Towing with excess frontal area makes even a flat feel like a hill to the drivetrain at cruising speeds, somewhat mitigated by the rounded shape.

[steve dunham]

The 2.0 liter turbo in our SUV can normally operate on 87 octane fuel except when towing
The owner’s manual for our vehicle states that when towing the fuel used must have a minimum octane of 89 and if you use fuel with a lower rating you can damage the engine and the damage is not covered under the warranty
Many of the websites I checked recommended premium - 91 octane when towing
In our area premium gasoline sell for about 50 to 60 cents / gallon higher than regular ($3.09 vs $2.49)
Comparing MPG only without making allowances for fuel costs doesn’t give an accurate picture .

[John in Michigan]

If you check FordTechMakuloco's video, he recommends doing a DRAIN AND FILL on the Ford Edge transmission (6F50 or 6F55) every 30,000 miles. If you do this, the transmission should last 150,000 to 200,000 miles. Here's his video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xrP6N6hVIc

This transmission has an internal filter that can only be replaced by dropping and splitting the transmission, so don't attempt that. He has a similar video for the 6F35 transmission used in the Ford Escape.

Also, transmission FLUSHING is generally NOT recommended for several reasons, UNLESS you do it yourself.

[k0wtz]

Originally Posted by John in Michigan

If you check FordTechMakuloco's video, he recommends doing a DRAIN AND FILL on the Ford Edge transmission (6F50 or 6F55) every 30,000 miles. If you do this, the transmission should last 150,000 to 200,000 miles. Here's his video.

This transmission has an internal filter that can only be replaced by dropping and splitting the transmission, so don't attempt that. He has a similar video for the 6F35 transmission used in the Ford Escape.

Also, transmission FLUSHING is generally NOT recommended for several reasons, UNLESS you do it yourself.

I don't wait every 30k miles. I am pretty much at max for tugging probably according to Ford shouldn't be doing it all but I am. Edge has 36k on it I did it once by myself by just opening up the pan and getting about 7 quarts out of it.

at 36 when when got back home I took to a guy with a flusher. I will continue doing this procedure as long as I am towing the scamp. Yes a transmission is usually good for at least 150k with maintance filter included. This new idea Ford has with the filter up in the transmission is a worry to me. I hate it!

I have always done my own filter and fluid changes so I could see in the pan for large particles of metal and a plugged up filter. I drove a 90 Cadillac 450,000ms doing this and it works!

bob

[k0wtz]

steve I don't know what to think I never ran across this! Sort of weird but I guess they have a reason.

I bought a brand new 1983 Cadillac on time and they said premium fuel only. no matter what year gas was expensive and I went through at least 2 tanks of fuel a week.

So me being a tightwad I used regular. Well guess what it plugged up everything in my exhaust system. The car shut down I had to drive it 100m at 20mph to get it to the dealer.

I got rid of that car that day it cost me a ton of money. Later GM sent a recall out on all those cars. Once again I lost a ton of money!!

bob

Originally Posted by steve dunham

The 2.0 liter turbo in our SUV can normally operate on 87 octane fuel except when towing
The owner’s manual for our vehicle states that when towing the fuel used must have a minimum octane of 89 and if you use fuel with a lower rating you can damage the engine and the damage is not covered under the warranty
Many of the websites I checked recommended premium - 91 octane when towing
In our area premium gasoline sell for about 50 to 60 cents / gallon higher than regular ($3.09 vs $2.49)
Comparing MPG only without making allowances for fuel costs doesn’t give an accurate picture .

[k0wtz]

john do you recall when gm came out with their converted gas motors to diesals? the dealers wouldn't even tackle working on them. I look at these transmissions the same way.

my guy runs a transmission shop the best but he says there are some he wont work on! hard to pass up good money but he said he would get them back and didn't like having to live with them!

he also said some are now in the 5k range to get fixed!

bob
[

QUOTE=k0wtz;768148]I don't wait every 30k miles. I am pretty much at max for tugging probably according to Ford shouldn't be doing it all but I am. Edge has 36k on it I did it once by myself by just opening up the pan and getting about 7 quarts out of it.

at 36 when when got back home I took to a guy with a flusher. I will continue doing this procedure as long as I am towing the scamp. Yes a transmission is usually good for at least 150k with maintance filter included. This new idea Ford has with the filter up in the transmission is a worry to me. I hate it!

I have always done my own filter and fluid changes so I could see in the pan for large particles of metal and a plugged up filter. I drove a 90 Cadillac 450,000ms doing this and it works!

bob[/QUOTE]

[k0wtz]

the most underpowered tug I have seen. I passed by our local mcdonalds and noticed a 13f scamp. well I turned around and found it still there. I waited outside because he was tugging with a 1998 volkswagon beetle tdi. that car is barely able to pull itself at times. how do I know this because I own one.

he had just been to my tdi mechanic for some work I don't know what their reaction to seeing this was I haven't been in for some time but I bet they greatly discouraged him from doing this.

our edge seems capable of pulling our 13f scamp I wouldn't go longer than this and feel I was treating our tug right! we have pulled some pretty good grades and do use paddle shifting the one time I like it especially when going down grades to save our brakes.

going up mountains I find a trucker having problems and stay right behind him at his speed. I am just in no hurry to get anywhere its vacation. Right!

bob

Originally Posted by thrifty bill

Utah has some very serious grades and high elevations. My favorite road in the entire USA is Utah SR12, from Bryce Canyon to almost Capitol Reef. Has one long 12% grade and another 13% grade. And it goes over 10,000 foot elevation.

Best process is to start with the trailer that best fits your needs and then obtain the tow vehicle that is well suited to pull it. Sounds like you are committed to that Volvo. Years ago I did it the same way, RV dealer "assured me" that I had more than enough TV. I ended up upgrading my tow vehicle after our first big trip as it did not work out well (crested a steep highway grade at 29MPH, overheating, etc.)

If you have to slow down too much on a major highway, you can become a road hazard. At 29MPH, I was going slower than any of the semis. It was a disaster. I had no business being on the interstate.

Until you hook up and start towing, and go up a steep, high elevation grade, you really don't know. There are always people out on the internet that will tell you they do fine. I've seen some crazy tow situations. Some people have to carefully choose their routing ahead of time, avoiding big grades, sticking to secondary roads, etc. I'd rather not have to worry about my route.

Certainly if a 13 footer works, your Volvo should be more than adequate. A 17 foot Casita would be challenging, and you might do fine with a 16 foot Scamp. Realize on FG trailers, size is measured end to end, not the trailer body. So a 13 foot Scamp has a 10 foot trailer. I've met a couple that had been full timing for two years in a Trillium 1300 (13 footer as well). They loved it. I know I couldn't do it, but they were doing just fine. No bathroom in their trailer. As the trailers get really small, you give up critical space to get a bathroom. A pull out portapotty, while not glamorous can work.

[Alex Adams]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

The 2.0 liter turbo in our SUV can normally operate on 87 octane fuel except when towing
The owner’s manual for our vehicle states that when towing the fuel used must have a minimum octane of 89 and if you use fuel with a lower rating you can damage the engine and the damage is not covered under the warranty
Many of the websites I checked recommended premium - 91 octane when towing
In our area premium gasoline sell for about 50 to 60 cents / gallon higher than regular ($3.09 vs $2.49)
Comparing MPG only without making allowances for fuel costs doesn’t give an accurate picture .

Unless the computer in your car is programmed for it, premium is a waste of money since the "burn" program cannot take advantage of the higher octane. Read your manual, if it says premium for towing and to put the vehicle in "tow mode", then do it. Otherwise 87 octane should be just fine.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Alex Adams

Unless the computer in your car is programmed for it, premium is a waste of money since the "burn" program cannot take advantage of the higher octane. Read your manual, if it says premium for towing and to put the vehicle in "tow mode", then do it. Otherwise 87 octane should be just fine.

The vehicle manufacturer ( 2.0 ltr turbo ) recommends using premium fuel - 91 octane at all times but that you can use regular or mid grade if desired but the performance and fuel mileage will be affected
The towing section of the owners manual states that when towing mid grade 89 octane is the minimum grade required

The recommended fuel for my V8 ( Different Mfg) truck is 89 octane
I tend to follow the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer

My only point was that many look at EPA listed mileage numbers only and do not take in to account the price difference between regular and premium fuel
I do know that when towing with my truck the fuel mileage is better with 89 octane than with 87 octane but when you compute fuel cost per mile , it’s about a wash

Both our vehicles are model year 2019 and are under warranty

[Alex Adams]

Sorry Steve, I wasn't trying to jump on you. I just wanted to reiterate that the manual is the place to go for the recommended octane for driving and towing. I also wanted to emphasize that using premium is, for vehicles designed for 87 octane, a waste of money. I should also point out to be very careful with buying off brand gasoline. I have bought some no-name gas that was not good for my vehicle. One tank I had made the engine run noticeably rougher with lower mileage. The next tank bought at a named brand station and the car ran fine and got the proper mileage. I have decided that it isn't worth the risk to save a couple of bucks(maybe), especially with modern fuel injection systems. Gum them up badly enough and you pay big bucks to fix them.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Alex Adams

Sorry Steve, I wasn't trying to jump on you. I just wanted to reiterate that the manual is the place to go for the recommended octane for driving and towing. I also wanted to emphasize that using premium is, for vehicles designed for 87 octane, a waste of money. I should also point out to be very careful with buying off brand gasoline. I have bought some no-name gas that was not good for my vehicle. One tank I had made the engine run noticeably rougher with lower mileage. The next tank bought at a named brand station and the car ran fine and got the proper mileage. I have decided that it isn't worth the risk to save a couple of bucks(maybe), especially with modern fuel injection systems. Gum them up badly enough and you pay big bucks to fix them.

You stated your opinion based on your knowledge of the subject matter and made a very valid point . I took no offense.because non was intended

[Raspy]

That Volvo engine seems like a trick to get the absolute maximum horsepower from the absolute minimum size engine, more for bragging rights and marketing, than for real function. Right off the bat it seems like a serious mis-match for towing duty and far better suited for racing between stop lights.

Superchargers offer immediate throttle response and high hp, but they require a mechanical drive system that is a parasitic load on the engine. Turbochargers are much simpler, but don't provide the instant power. Around town, turbo lag affects the driving experience, but when towing up a grade it doesn't. Supercharging makes the engine instantly respond to throttle, but on long grades, it acts the same as turbocharging. If you are buying this car to tow, the lag is not so important, and modern turbos manage the lag quite well. Considering all of the management requirements, overstressed nature, and complication of this design. Why not get a more robust larger engine in a heavier vehicle that is comfortably rated to tow a Casita 17? That bigger vehicle might also have bigger brakes and more stability too. It might even come with a brake controller from the factory.

The volvo may prove to be a very good engine, but it is also very complicated for a four cylinder, and I'm sure it has to have premium fuel. Everything is stressed to the max. It's not the kind of engine I can visualize pulling long grades out west. It seems similar to putting a blown Hemi dragster engine in an over-the-road tractor trailer rig, and expecting it to work on long grades.

So why does it seem so appealing and why try to use it at it's highest possible tow rating? I wonder if it's because you want a city hot rod, and hope it can be pressed into service as a tow vehicle.

Again, it may be a perfectly good engine, but it is certainly not normal for towing, and I don't see the advantage to use it that way. Everything is highly stressed, and must remain perfect for it to survive.

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by Alex Adams

Unless the computer in your car is programmed for it, premium is a waste of money since the "burn" program cannot take advantage of the higher octane. Read your manual, if it says premium for towing and to put the vehicle in "tow mode", then do it. Otherwise 87 octane should be just fine.

Alex,

Not sure what you mean about the "burn" program taking advantage of the higher octane. I may have misinterpreted what you meant.

Premium and regular grades have the same amount of chemical energy, with the possible exception based on the percentage of ethanol. But they have different characteristics. "Regular" gas ignites easier, so it is more likely to "ping" with the engine under load. This robs power and can damage the engine. Sensors in modern engines can hear this and the computer compensates for it by changing the ignition timing and or changing the valve timing to affect the compression pressure. The engine gets detuned to stop the pinging. This is where the power or mileage difference comes from, not from the energy difference in the fuel, with the possible exception of ethanol ratios.

So the computer always tries to get maximum power and efficiency, but detunes as needed for low octane fuel. Engines designed for high octane can never produce their rated output on regular.

[Alex Adams]

That was what I meant but didn't want to get "into the weeds" so I used a term I have used in the past to explain it to someone who knows nothing about the subject. They understood the concept that the computer was programmed to "burn" the fuel properly and had to be programmed to "burn" the different octane levels properly. I use burn because an internal combustion engine burns (combusts) the fuel.

[Steve and Rosemary]

Not much to add by way of the towing except that we like to feel like our trailer "isn't back there". I've never towed anything with a 4 cyl so take all of what follows with a large grain of salt.

Your mileage may most definitely vary, but our experience has been with a 16' Scamp towed by a V6 Explorer and then a 2006 V8 Toyota Tundra (4.7 L). Living in northern Utah, we covered a lot of big grades with her and the Tundra was, by FAR, much more comfortable. I can't imagine what it'd be like with a 4 cyl but I acknowledge that towing ability has come a long way since we owned that Explorer. The Explorer could get us up the hills, but we were in the slow lane the entire time. One thing I'd be most worried about is the stopping power of a smaller tow vehicle, but there are people on this forum who have far more experience than me regarding that so I won't venture to guess.

If you're interested in following a couple living in a 13' Scamp full time, Elsa Rhae has a channel on YouTube that has been documenting their life for the last several years. The used to tow with a Mini Cooper and now tow with a Subaru so it might give you a good sense of what you can expect.

Good luck!

[k0wtz]

Originally Posted by Raspy

That Volvo engine seems like a trick to get the absolute maximum horsepower from the absolute minimum size engine, more for bragging rights and marketing, than for real function. Right off the bat it seems like a serious mis-match for towing duty and far better suited for racing between stop lights.

Superchargers offer immediate throttle response and high hp, but they require a mechanical drive system that is a parasitic load on the engine. Turbochargers are much simpler, but don't provide the instant power. Around town, turbo lag affects the driving experience, but when towing up a grade it doesn't. Supercharging makes the engine instantly respond to throttle, but on long grades, it acts the same as turbocharging. If you are buying this car to tow, the lag is not so important, and modern turbos manage the lag quite well. Considering all of the management requirements, overstressed nature, and complication of this design. Why not get a more robust larger engine in a heavier vehicle that is comfortably rated to tow a Casita 17? That bigger vehicle might also have bigger brakes and more stability too. It might even come with a brake controller from the factory.

The volvo may prove to be a very good engine, but it is also very complicated for a four cylinder, and I'm sure it has to have premium fuel. Everything is stressed to the max. It's not the kind of engine I can visualize pulling long grades out west. It seems similar to putting a blown Hemi dragster engine in an over-the-road tractor trailer rig, and expecting it to work on long grades.

So why does it seem so appealing and why try to use it at it's highest possible tow rating? I wonder if it's because you want a city hot rod, and hope it can be pressed into service as a tow vehicle.

Again, it may be a perfectly good engine, but it is certainly not normal for towing, and I don't see the advantage to use it that way. Everything is highly stressed, and must remain perfect for it to survive.

raspy I don't honestly know the story with our ford edge eco 4cy. All I know in my towing life and I have done a bit I have always hooked up a car and went.

I once bought a new 1976 dodge truck with a 318 and did a fairly good job towing a 32f 5th wheel. I never seems to lack for power with that truck and small engine with a/c going. But I was never one that had to get there first!

I don't know if the Ford Edge is built to tug the 13f Scamp but I do it. It does have paddle shift and I almost learned the hard way to keep it out of od a transmission killer I don't know why I forgot that! I know that transmission was getting hot! When I took it in for its transmission flush my transmission guy didn't seemed too concerned maybe he sees a job! LOL

I don't know what a 16f Scamp weighs but if that rig is designed for 5000lbs he should be ok. I would be very careful where I kept the shifter and I would do above average maintaince on the fluid and filter change. As long as he doesn't get stuck or get it hot I am thinking he should be ok. I wouldn't be hitting it too hard you know 80mph. I would calm it down to 60 for the cars good.

bob

[k0wtz]

Originally Posted by Raspy

That Volvo engine seems like a trick to get the absolute maximum horsepower from the absolute minimum size engine, more for bragging rights and marketing, than for real function. Right off the bat it seems like a serious mis-match for towing duty and far better suited for racing between stop lights.

Superchargers offer immediate throttle response and high hp, but they require a mechanical drive system that is a parasitic load on the engine. Turbochargers are much simpler, but don't provide the instant power. Around town, turbo lag affects the driving experience, but when towing up a grade it doesn't. Supercharging makes the engine instantly respond to throttle, but on long grades, it acts the same as turbocharging. If you are buying this car to tow, the lag is not so important, and modern turbos manage the lag quite well. Considering all of the management requirements, overstressed nature, and complication of this design. Why not get a more robust larger engine in a heavier vehicle that is comfortably rated to tow a Casita 17? That bigger vehicle might also have bigger brakes and more stability too. It might even come with a brake controller from the factory.

The volvo may prove to be a very good engine, but it is also very complicated for a four cylinder, and I'm sure it has to have premium fuel. Everything is stressed to the max. It's not the kind of engine I can visualize pulling long grades out west. It seems similar to putting a blown Hemi dragster engine in an over-the-road tractor trailer rig, and expecting it to work on long grades.

So why does it seem so appealing and why try to use it at it's highest possible tow rating? I wonder if it's because you want a city hot rod, and hope it can be pressed into service as a tow vehicle.

Again, it may be a perfectly good engine, but it is certainly not normal for towing, and I don't see the advantage to use it that way. Everything is highly stressed, and must remain perfect for it to survive.

well get this while in Europe I saw Volvos, BMW, Mercedes all the luxury cars pulling heavy trailers of course mostly flat landers. Would this count in towing with these luxury cars? They all have those funny looking trailer hitches on them too. It looked funny to see an 80k car tugging a trailer also.

bob

[thrifty bill]

Originally Posted by Jo1

(I like the trillium but it has only a front bench. Most 13’s also have a front bench. l have wondered where I can find a carpenter/individual that would convert the front bench to a dinette—we have access to our parents’ tools, but seeing folks selling their WIP trailers after realizing how much work it takes... gives us pause as we want to do any mods the right way!!!

The old Trillium 1300 came in three different floor plans: the one with the front gaucho/bunks, one with a small corner bathroom, and a front dinette. The gaucho is by far the most common, probably over 90% of the total made if not more.

There are several threads where people modified the front and converted it to a dinette.

One challenge with the vintage Trilliums is they are rare, and even more rare in the US. I looked for mine for a year! They also sell for a premium over other small FG trailers like a Scamp 13.

I really like the abundance of windows that open fully on the Trillium. There is nothing that compares to it IMHO. My Trillium 1300 has more window opening sq footage than my Escape 19!! I have six windows that can open 100% on my Trillium.