Gas vs Diesel

[Jon Vermilye]

While I appreciate the wide bandwidth of torque produced by a diesel engine, I discovered I'm allergic to liquid diesel. So, I'm sticking with gasoline. I do have to say the turbocharged EcoBoost 3.5 has many of the good characteristics of a diesel without causing me to break out in red blotches!

[bjsmitty]

We pull with a 2015 Sprinter diesel. It was a very affordable vehicle, has lots of space to carry all the stuff my husband HAS to bring on our 3-4 month travels each year, gets between 16-18 MPG, pulls like a dream and requires regular maintenance every 20,000 miles, not 3-5,000 miles. Yes, it is more expensive, but worth it. It does not smell, nor does it make any more noise than our 2012 V6 Tacoma.

It is not a luxury vehicle, but it is still great. In the off season (late fall to early spring) he hauls food and other goods for our local food pantry and homeless shelter. Would not have it any other way.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by ScribeWithAStylus

One study, funded by the EPA, looked at diesel emissions in over 60 california jurisdictions. They isolated about 1/3 of them to use and found a high correlation between lung problems and diesel emissions. Interesting, another firm looked at the jurisdictictions and found out that in a second third, there was a negative correlation between lung problems and diesel emissions - e.g. diesel prevented lung problems. They also found that in the last third, there was no correlation between diesel emissions and lung problems. So which is it, do diesel emissions - (1) Cause (2) Prevent or (3) have no effect on - Lung Problems?
In a second study with human subjects - they exposed a bunch of people with lung problems to diesel emissions. They did not inform them that it was EPA opinion that diesel emissions could cause fatalaty in people with lung problems. Happily, no one developed any additional lung issues. However, no one was charged with failure to use consent forms that warned the people being studied that they could be killed by the study.
Moral - I do not trust any study funded by either the diesel industry or the governments.
Walk in Peace,
Scribe With A Stylus

ps - Randomized double blind studies with patients divided equally into subject groups are the gold standard in medical tests. However, how in the world do you conduct such tests -> ethically <- when the presumption is that you are going to substantially damage the health of half the subjects. This whole area is an ethical mine field.

I and I think most others do not consider statistical analysis to be science.
While it may have some merit, it begs the question.


I have no doubt that fuel emissions can be harmful,but I worked in a fuels refinery for 35 years many of them as a fleet mechanic. It may kill me yet, but I meet regularly with hundreds of retirees, most of whom have lived long and healthy lives.

[Raspy]

I would never buy a diesel for the reason that after I crossed the 100,000 mile mark, I would start to be ahead on the investment. Part of the reason, amongst others is why put up with something you don't like, or need, just so so might save a small amount after years of owning it? Buy a diesel because you already like diesels. If you really are interested, don't use the most negative hype in your calculations. There are good reasons why people like them and would have nothing else. If you don't see what some of us consider advantages, then you should stick with gas. Modern gas engines have come a long way, and they have their advantages too, like simple emissions and lower cost.

Here is another item I forgot to mention: The larger diesels all have engine brakes. This is one of the most marvelous inventions for towing there ever was. Mine, for instance, holds back with over 100 horsepower in retarding force! This means no brakes are ever needed on downgrades. Mine will hold the truck and trailer back on the Sonora pass with a 26% grade! It also means that the brakes last two to three times as long as they do without it. The best I could get out of my older Ram brakes was about 90,000 miles without the engine brake. With the brake, on my newer model, I'm at 166,000 and the original brakes are still at about 50%. Brake jobs on 3/4 ton trucks are not cheap and overused brakes on downgrades are dangerous.

[SnowballCamper]

For me, It's

the torque
the longer service intervals
generally better mpg
overall longevity

When I was young, my dad's one ton chevy dump truck had the gas engine. It had no torque, and we always had traffic backed up behind us whenever we had to go up a hill. Then at about 30,000 miles the camshaft craps out. Yes, the lobes on the camshaft smeared over. Where in the troubleshooting flow chart does it end with, "replace camshaft," well it doesn't.

I'm sure there are gas engines that can perform nowadays... and are more durable. But I *know* when I push the accelerator on the big diesel, it's gonna move. Don't worry, I keep the stock exhaust, those over-tuned eardrum busters annoy me to no end also.

[floyd]

4.9L 6CYL Ford gasoline engine.
Remember this....

[floyd]

Originally Posted by SnowballCamper

For me, It's

the torque
the longer service intervals
generally better mpg
overall longevity

When I was young, my dad's one ton chevy dump truck had the gas engine. It had no torque, and we always had traffic backed up behind us whenever we had to go up a hill. Then at about 30,000 miles the camshaft craps out. Yes, the lobes on the camshaft smeared over. Where in the troubleshooting flow chart does it end with, "replace camshaft," well it doesn't.

I'm sure there are gas engines that can perform nowadays... and are more durable. But I *know* when I push the accelerator on the big diesel, it's gonna move. Don't worry, I keep the stock exhaust, those over-tuned eardrum busters annoy me to no end also.

Chevy V8s had soft cams for many years,even in small cars. GM falsely blamed it on bad oil. Just because he should have bought a Ford doesn't mean it should have been a diesel.

Everybody likes to conflate car diesels with over the road truck diesels.
Simply not appropriate.
Light truck diesels fall in between the two.
There is presently no diesel on the market which has earned a place in my garage, and certainly not for insignificant or non-existent gains cited above.

Every diesel I have priced cost more as an option than having the equivalent gasoline engine professionally replaced... sometimes twice.


Still engine choice is part of vehicle choice and each is appropriate for some buyers. In this case choice is good.
I'm just glad I'm not stuck with a diesel in a light truck, or with the high initial cost at purchase.


Like gasoline, diesel fuel is a whole different substance than it was 50 years ago, so are light duty diesel engines which are much more competitive with gas engines today than they were in days of yore.

[steve dunham]

For me a 1/2 ton diesel pickup is a solution in search of a problem IMHO
Most 1/2 ton trucks are mainly used as commuter vehicles / grocery getters and are seldom used for towing or hauling anything negating most diesel advantages
If I am going to spend an additional $10,000 on a diesel vehicle it will be because I have a genuine need for a diesel
Towing a 2000 to 5000 lb fiberglass trailer doesn’t meet the criteria
My gas powered V8 truck has never failed to get me anywhere I want or need to go .

[salmo7000]

Just to provide another perspective, from someone who actually owns and tows with a 1/2 ton diesel... I bought a new 2017 Chevy Colorado with Duramax in 2018. While I paid more for it than I would have paid for the gas version of this same model, I paid $4K less than than a comparably equipped Ford F-150 2.7L Ecoboost and $9K less than than a 3.5L Ecoboost, both of which I was also considering. While at the time I wasn't sold on buying a diesel, I became sold when I test drove it. It ran as quiet as a gas engine and hummed along effortlessly at 65 mph at very low rpm's, sipping fuel occasionally as it did so.

Where I live, the disparity between the cost of a gallon of gasoline and a gallon of diesel averages about $0.25 cents, and sometimes diesel is actually less. It was last summer. So I would argue purchasing and running this truck has perhaps saved me $$ and definitely not cost me orders of magnitude more than a gas powered truck.

This truck is incredibly comfortable, fuel efficient, and a great tow for my Escape 19. In the mountains of Idaho, it routinely gets 30 - 32 mpg not towing, which is slightly better than my 2014 Subaru Forester and much better than my husband's Toyota RAV4. While towing, it gets 16 - 22 mpg. I sit here and read all the accounts of folks towing with Toyota Tacoma's and Tundra's and other models that get 11 mpg or less and scratch my head. Even the F-150 Ecoboosts, which I would be the first to admit are superior tows, don't seem to get better than 16 mpg.

While fuel efficiency may not be a big deal to some, it is for me. If I'm going to drag around a 4,000-lb trailer for my own comfort, I want to do so as efficiently as possible. And not towing?? Driving a vehicle that can barely manage to break 22 mpg or less is not acceptable to me.

And as previously mentioned, perhaps the biggest advantage of these small diesels is the exhaust brake. This feature is priceless as far as I'm concerned, especially if one must routinely travel down long, steep grades.

As most of us know, the emissions systems on these modern diesels are their weakness. But I also view them as a strength, as mine never emits a diesel smell or black smoke. I have had 0 trouble in 2 years. Yes I have to dump 2.5 gallons of DEF into the truck about every 4,000 miles, but it's really no big deal. I have noticed the DPF regen system doing its thing exactly 0 times since I've had it.

Someone said these small 1/2 ton diesels are really designed for people who just want to use them to go to the grocery store. I would argue that is absolutely not true. No one needs an exhaust brake or a truck rated to tow 7,700 lbs with 1,400 lbs of payload for that. And using one for nothing but running errands around town is exactly the cause of many of the troubles folks have reported with the emissions systems. These trucks are designed to run hard and work hard, not tool around in cities in stop-and-go traffic.

Perhaps in a couple of years I'll be singing a different tune. If my truck develops all these problems folks are anticipating, I'll be the first to admit I made a mistake, and I'll be on here warning people away from them. But so far in 32K miles, many of which are towing miles, the truck has performed flawlessly, efficiently, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

So for anyone in the market for a tow for a lightweight trailer, don't be quick to reject these small diesels!

[Rzrbrn]

Thank you very much for posting Katherine. You cut through a lot of smoke...

[Justus C]

Originally Posted by salmo7000

Just to provide another perspective, from someone who actually owns and tows with a 1/2 ton diesel... I bought a new 2017 Chevy Colorado with Duramax in 2018. While I paid more for it than I would have paid for the gas version of this same model, I paid $4K less than than a comparably equipped Ford F-150 2.7L Ecoboost and $9K less than than a 3.5L Ecoboost, both of which I was also considering. While at the time I wasn't sold on buying a diesel, I became sold when I test drove it. It ran as quiet as a gas engine and hummed along effortlessly at 65 mph at very low rpm's, sipping fuel occasionally as it did so.

Either you've got great negotiating skills or you got some nice dealer incentives! Whatever the case, congratulations on the good buy. When I priced out 2019 models, the difference between a Colorado with the Duramax and no options other than towing package and a comparable 2.7L F-150 SuperCrew was less than $1,000 for the 4x2 and about $2,300 for the 4x4--both in favor of the Colorado. The F-150 edges out the Colorado in rated capabilities, but not fuel economy.

Although it wasn't available at the time, the new Ranger can be had in 4x4 for less than the cheapest Colorado Duramax 4x2, with comparable payload and towing ratings. But having driven neither of them, it's hard to make a fair comparison.

I look forward to seeing the long term reviews from owners like yourself who aren't emotionally attached to their purchase decision.

[JonRaw]

Originally Posted by Justus C

Either you've got great negotiating skills or you got some nice dealer incentives! Whatever the case, congratulations on the good buy. When I priced out 2019 models, the difference between a Colorado with the Duramax and no options other than towing package and a comparable 2.7L F-150 SuperCrew was less than $1,000 for the 4x2 and about $2,300 for the 4x4--both in favor of the Colorado. The F-150 edges out the Colorado in rated capabilities, but not fuel economy.

Although it wasn't available at the time, the new Ranger can be had in 4x4 for less than the cheapest Colorado Duramax 4x2, with comparable payload and towing ratings. But having driven neither of them, it's hard to make a fair comparison.

I look forward to seeing the long term reviews from owners like yourself who aren't emotionally attached to their purchase decision.

According to others on this forum, the Colorado is "roughly twice the price" of the Ranger. Not sure I will believe that until someone shows me the actual numbers of 2 comparably equipped trucks, but that's what was said.



I bought my 2017 Colorado Duramax for $37,500 in March of 2017. It's a Z71 4x4 and came with the towing package (including engine breaking, integrated trailer brake, etc) from the factory. I have over 41,000 miles on it and it's been a great truck so far. Pulls my Bigfoot 21RB very nicely. My average combine milage before I started towing is 27mpg. I regularly get 30 on the highway and 24 in the city. Towing the Bigfoot I get 14-18 mpg depending on the terrain.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by JonRaw

According to others on this forum, the Colorado is "roughly twice the price" of the Ranger. Not sure I will believe that until someone shows me the actual numbers of 2 comparably equipped trucks, but that's what was said.



I bought my 2017 Colorado Duramax for $37,500 in March of 2017. It's a Z71 4x4 and came with the towing package (including engine breaking, integrated trailer brake, etc) from the factory. I have over 41,000 miles on it and it's been a great truck so far. Pulls my Bigfoot 21RB very nicely. My average combine milage before I started towing is 27mpg. I regularly get 30 on the highway and 24 in the city. Towing the Bigfoot I get 14-18 mpg depending on the terrain.

I just simply looked up the price..$45,000 for the entry level diesel (2019)..
I paid $25,000 for my Ranger. Add tax and you still fall a little short of double, but I did say "roughly".
"Comparably equipped" is both subjective and irrelevant, since you are required to buy certain unwanted options to get either.


You don't need someone else to do your home work, I happen to know you have internet access!

[Justus C]

Originally Posted by JonRaw

According to others on this forum, the Colorado is "roughly twice the price" of the Ranger. Not sure I will believe that until someone shows me the actual numbers of 2 comparably equipped trucks, but that's what was said.



I bought my 2017 Colorado Duramax for $37,500 in March of 2017. It's a Z71 4x4 and came with the towing package (including engine breaking, integrated trailer brake, etc) from the factory. I have over 41,000 miles on it and it's been a great truck so far. Pulls my Bigfoot 21RB very nicely. My average combine milage before I started towing is 27mpg. I regularly get 30 on the highway and 24 in the city. Towing the Bigfoot I get 14-18 mpg depending on the terrain.

I like a Bigfoot 21 for our next trailer (we've got the 2-foot-itis) and a Duramax Colorado/Canyon is on my short list to tow it with. Good to know you tow successfully with it. It's up against a Ranger, F-150 2.7L/3.5L, and Silverado 3.0L Duramax (pending reviews!). That will be a few years down the road so there's plenty of time to see how they stack up in the long run.

I saw the same claim you did and it's easily proven false by using the respective build and price tools, so I didn't think it merited a response. Last I checked, a 4x4 SuperCrew Ranger XL with no options but the towing package came in at $33,195 before dealer incentives and fees. I was able to get a similar Colorado LT with the Duramax down to $39,195 before dealer incentives and fees. It's a substantial difference, but hardly twice the price. I guess it all comes down to what you want, as you must purchase a higher trim level of the Colorado to get the diesel.

[salmo7000]

Originally Posted by JonRaw

According to others on this forum, the Colorado is "roughly twice the price" of the Ranger. Not sure I will believe that until someone shows me the actual numbers of 2 comparably equipped trucks, but that's what was said.



I bought my 2017 Colorado Duramax for $37,500 in March of 2017. It's a Z71 4x4 and came with the towing package (including engine breaking, integrated trailer brake, etc) from the factory. I have over 41,000 miles on it and it's been a great truck so far. Pulls my Bigfoot 21RB very nicely. My average combine milage before I started towing is 27mpg. I regularly get 30 on the highway and 24 in the city. Towing the Bigfoot I get 14-18 mpg depending on the terrain.

Yep, I paid somewhere around $36,500.00 for my 4X4 crew cab Colorado early in 2018, for a 2017 model the dealer was quite anxious to move. I had just returned from the Ford dealer who said he would not go below $40K for a comparably equipped 2.7L Ecoboost, and the 3.5L were going for over $45K.

After I test drove the Colorado, I was 99% sure I wanted it but not ready to commit. Then the salesperson wrote the price down on a piece of paper and shoved it across the desk. I took one look, and that's all she wrote. I was driving it home in an hour.

I understand these types of deals on Colorado and Canyon diesels are hard to find at present. And I have no idea what the price on a Ranger is, they were not available when I was looking to buy. It could be they are cheaper, and if so would be worth a hard look for anyone in the market for a mid-size pickup for towing. But again, if a person falls into a good deal on a Colorado or Canyon diesel, they are worth a hard look as well!

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Justus C

I like a Bigfoot 21 for our next trailer (we've got the 2-foot-itis) and a Duramax Colorado/Canyon is on my short list to tow it with. Good to know you tow successfully with it. It's up against a Ranger, F-150 2.7L/3.5L, and Silverado 3.0L Duramax (pending reviews!). That will be a few years down the road so there's plenty of time to see how they stack up in the long run.

I saw the same claim you did and it's easily proven false by using the respective build and price tools, so I didn't think it merited a response. Last I checked, a 4x4 SuperCrew Ranger XL with no options but the towing package came in at $33,195 before dealer incentives and fees. I was able to get a similar Colorado LT with the Duramax down to $39,195 before dealer incentives and fees. It's a substantial difference, but hardly twice the price. I guess it all comes down to what you want, as you must purchase a higher trim level of the Colorado to get the diesel.

This is cut and paste from the Chevrolet build and price site...
No options which are not required, this is apparently the minimum list price to get a diesel Colorado...

Standard Vehicle Price$41,400
Selected Colors
$0
Selected Options (9)
$3,500
Total Vehicle and Options$44,900
Destination Freight Charge$1,095
Total Vehicle Price$45,995

Total Cash Allowance[s]-$1,250
Net Price$44,745
Total Included Price Discounts and Cash Allowances:-$1,250

† MSRP less cash offers. Tax, title, license and dealer fees extra. Take new retail delivery by 01/02/2020. Residency restrictions apply. Not available with some other offers. See dealer for details.


This plus the tow package should be everything required to get Diesel Colorado and a 7700 pound tow rating.


Apparently there is no diesel 2WD.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Here is the price from the Ranger build and price site...
The base price on the Ranger is $24,400 plus $495 for a factory tow package.


This everything required to get a 4CYL Ranger and a tow rating of 7500 pounds.

Notice I did not say "comparably equipped" since each truck above has only the equipment required to get the mentioned engine with the "comparable" tow rating.

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by floyd

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Here is the cut and paste from the Ranger build an price site...
The base price on the Ranger is $24,400 plus $495 for a factory tow package.


This everything needed to get a tow rating of 7500 pounds.

Does this include vinyl-coated cardboard interior panels?

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

Does this include vinyl-coated cardboard interior panels?

No, actually I bought an STX which has XLT upholstery.
The base interior in my opinion is better than the Lariat (purely subjective).
Go check it out.

At any rate..your remark is tangent and irrelevant to the point.



The main difference here really is the requirement to buy 4WD on the Colorado...That would be a deal breaker for me.


I'm pretty sure you could comprehend the point of my post , if you made the effort.

[War Eagle]

A few personal observations regarding diesel engines in light duty trucks: 1) Don't forget resale value. In 1999, I paid an extra $4,500 to get the 7.3L PowerStroke in my then new F-250 SuperDuty. Twenty years later, I got every bit of that back when I finally sold it. 2) Regarding maintenance, I swallowed hard every time I had to buy the 15 quarts of diesel engine oil (yes, nearly 4 gallons of oil!) for every oil change in that 7.3L. But 3), it barely broke a sweat towing 65 mph at around 2,000 engine RPM getting +/- 20 MPG. I love my current 2016 F-150 5.0L V8 gas-burner, but it's no 7.3L PowerStroke.

[steve dunham]

This Spring when I was looking for a new truck I soon discovered I couldn’t afford the cost to downgrade to a mid size truck
Last month we bought my wife a new 2019 vehicle . We looked at Ranger trucks and anything close to having the options we wanted was well North of $35,000
None of midsize trucks are a bargain in my estimation
My truck has 4 wheel drive , my wife’s car has AWD , wouldn’t be without it .