HELP! 13ft Scamp Deluxe VERY difficult to tow

[Byron Kinnaman]

If I remember correctly you said that you 5,000 miles on the tires and they are showing cupping. If there's any visible tire wear other than wearing off the nubbins I would think there's something wrong. It sounds like the tires are being scrubbed. This site does talk about checking toe in, even though it a Porche site the technique is the same.

[Terry D. Gwinn]

Have been following this thread but not closely. The one thing I have not seen is mention of axle gear ratio. If all tv's are set for general transport they will very probably be geared a a ratio unsuitable for much up and down towing. I'd check to see if the optional tow ratios offered by many manufacturers are what is being run in any of these vehicles.

T

[Darwin Maring]

To The Hard to tow guy:

That little egg weighs almost as our Scamp 5th wheel loaded.

Here is something you may want to try:

This will be a lot less expensive than experimenting by putting in new axles, bearings, brakes, and tires.


1. Get a powerful tow vehicle and tow the trailer to see if it is still hard to tow.(F250)

2. If it is, then rent a heavy equipment tandem wheeled trailer and tow it with the same vehicle. If it tow’s ok then go to step 3.

3. Put the Egg on the heavy equipment tandem wheeled trailer, strap it down, and then tow it to see what happens. If the problem goes away, then you more than likely have an axle problem to include the tires, bearings, brakes.

[Jeff G.]

Hi Darwin...

Yes, I realize my Scamp is very heavy...but that 2480lb result was with the trailer VERY loaded as I packed it with everything I could salvage from Hurricane Katrina. I'm sure it doesn't weigh that much packed for a normal trip. However, as my posts indicate, once I got rid of all that extra cargo it still towed the same.

I've towed the trailer with an F-250 and a 1999 Trans Am 315hp 3.73 rear axle RWD 6 speed manual. Trailer is still just as difficult to tow. Trailer was towed by a GM Kodiak equipped tow truck; the driver commented how heavy the trailer felt, and we slowed to 35-40mph on hills. You shouldn't feel it behind any of these vehicles.

I've towed larger and boxier cargo trailers with my smaller tow vehicles, the Neon and the turbo Beetle. Neither of these cars EVER exhibited a problem towing these box type cargo trailers, and the cars were also loaded down further as I had a passenger with me each time. The trailers were wood framed tandem axled typical box trailers, and I was hauling $11000 worth of custom made mahogany Klipsch speakers...14 in all. I never had the "Why can't I go" feeling when approaching an incline or hill.

Something's definitely going on. I don't have the resources to get a utility trailer and strap the Scamp to it.

[Nick]

Jeff

You might try the suggestion I made in the thread you started on this subject.

[Darwin Maring]

Nick had a great idea also.

You're going to drive yourself nuts before you figure out the problem if you don't do the simple tests first. Nick's test is the easiest of all and will not cost a dime.

My test will determine if the egg is at fault as you will be pulling the egg on top of the tandem axle trailer.

The alternative is to replace the axle, brakes, berrings and tires all of which will be costly.

A slightly bent axle on one side will create a towing problem and wear out the tire(s). You might want to see if a mechanic can attach a wheel alignment gauge to see if the wheels are alligned straight with each other.

[Bill MacDermod]

I think your speedometer is off, your car is doing top speed but only regitering 35-40 mph

[Penny Taylor]

You said that the tires are cupped. That shows that something is amiss. It might be a bent axle, bent frame, or maybe one/two wheels are bent, so that they are not tracking right. Have you had the same experience towing other trailers ?
Was the trailer so overloaded that the tires were rubbing on the fenders ?

When I was towing a small, overloaded, travel trailer, moving across the US, I had to stop, and re-situate a lot of stuff inside, to make it tow right. In the TV, too. Finally got it right, so that I could cross the Rockies !!

[Jeff G.]

Hi Nick...I haven't been able to re-test the 60 to 0 characteristics yet. But, if memory serves me correctly, the van and trailer on this most recent trip slowed pretty fast, albeit not nearly as if the trailer brakes were on. Combined with wind at the time, however, it is hard to judge the results.

As far as the speedometer being off...the speedometer in the Caravan at least IS off...but its not in a beneficial way. The speedometer doesn't read SLOW, but it reads fast...4mph too fast (verified by GPS and those irritating cop signs on streets that flash). So, when I THINK I've finally hit 60mph (a landmark with this trailer HA HA) I'm really only going 56!!! Kinda a punch to the belly wouldn't you say???

Thanks for everyone's help. Keep the suggestions coming!

[Pete Dumbleton]

I just read this entire thread (I hadn't before because with so many replies I figured it was sure to have drifted off-topic; happily, I was wrong).

1. You have convinced me that the trailer, not the TV, is the problem -- You've towed it with a variety of vehicles from a Neon to an F250, plus the muscle car, and the problem stays.

2. Without heat on the metal running gear (hubs/bearings), it is extremely unlikely that the problem is there.

3. With the extra height you have, presuming you are towing level, I doubt there is any "air dam" effect holding the egg back.

4. I don't believe weight, by itself, is the culprit -- Joy on Yahoo Scampers is running her 13' (dunno the year) weighing 2,200 lbs on a Dexter #9 rubbered at 2,200 lbs and reports no problems of this nature.

5. I sense Brian B-P is right that there is an axle misalignment problem affecting the tires and creating drag, altho as Scamp points out, the cupping wear is on the wrong side of the tire for overload. My recommendation would be to take the rig AS-IS, before any more new gear is added, to a true axle and frame shop and let them have at it -- They have the frames and gear to do the precise measurements and can maybe even do the bending required if the axle can be adjusted.

6. Before I went to the axle shop, however, I would try Nick's "How well does it coast in neutral on flat pavement" idea. That takes the tow vehicle almost completely out of the picture (except for its own rolling resistance).

I would suspect that if there is an alignment problem of any sort, the larger tires may magnify the fault. Regardless, if alignment is a problem, I would expect it to show up in hot tires.

The axle tag might be on the other side of the axle beam; it is usually riveted on. Sometimes the capacity is also painted or stenciled on the beam. My 91S13 came with less than a 2,200 lb axle (I believe it was 1,600, but I didn't keep the old tag...). Scamp should be able to tell you precisely what axle went on by reference to your VIN and their records which were reportedly not damaged by the fire -- I dunno when they started using 2,200 lb axles as standard on the S13.

I believe Scamp is now using Al-Ko axles under the 16'/19' models because of alignment problems with Dexter #10 axles. Casita had at least one problem with a Dexter #10 axle failing on one side.

Keep in mind that if your axle is undersized and you decide to replace it, the least expensive way to get brake parts (including the drums you want) is to order them with a new axle.

Don't forget to provide feedback, even negative results, to both the group and to Kent and crew -- The more we all learn, the better we are able to help ourselves and others.

[Jeff G.]

Thank you very much, Pete, for your insight and not immediately jumping to the tow vehicles as the culprits.

I will definitely post my findings (if I can actually come to a conclusion) when I (hopefully) resolve the problem with my trailer. I'm having problems in Miami finding a reputable shop however; I've been to two, and not only did they have no clue as to what I was talking about, but they didn't seem to WANT to know what I was talking about. Let alone no one here seems to speak good English.

I hope I can find an answer. I will be getting my hubs and new wheels together soon (at least that will eliminate those variables). I'm thinking of a 400hp 400ft/lbs torgue Chevy SSR 6 speed 3.91 axle ratio RWD tow vehicle...although, the Trans Am should be just as competent, given that it weighs over a thousand pounds less than an SSR. I'm sure the little tiny Scamp will still feel like a train behind even a monster like an SSR as well, however.

Please, everyone, keep the ideas coming.

Thanks again!

[Roger H]

I will be getting my hubs and new wheels together soon (at least that will eliminate those variables). I'm thinking of a 400hp 400ft/lbs torgue Chevy SSR 6 speed 3.91 axle ratio RWD tow vehicle...although, the Trans Am should be just as competent, given that it weighs over a thousand pounds less than an SSR. I'm sure the little tiny Scamp will still feel like a train behind even a monster like an SSR as well, however.

Please, everyone, keep the ideas coming.

Thanks again!

Jeff, not to be a wet blanket, but your definition of a monster tow vehicle "like an SSR" and mine are significantly different. The SSR has a total trailer weight tow capacity of 2500 lbs with a 250 lb max tongue weight. I'm sure your 2400 lb Scamp WILL feel like a train behind it, regardless of what you do to it. We're still in the range of subjective here, but I always knew my 2700 lb Scamp 16' CD was behind my Tundra V6 with a 5,000 lb towing capacity, and it significantly impacted my gas mileage. My Bigfoot was even worse when I towed it home. It tows well, just feels heavier even though it's not significantly heavier than my Scamp 16', maybe 300 lbs or so. My Scamp 16' dry weight would have been overload for the factory specs on the SSR, regardless of the horsepower and rear end gearing.

So, keep in mind the 'towing feel' is subjective and light weight tow vehicles that aren't seriously built with towing in mind will always struggle with towing relatively light weight loads at the upper end of their towing limits.

Configuration also plays a huge part in the picture. I'd expect, for example, that your Scamp WOULD tow significantly 'heavier' behind the Trans-Am because of the exposed frontal area of the trailer behind a relatively short, wide car. The areodynamics factors of any specific towing combination have as much, if not more to do with how the tow 'feels' than the actual horsepower to weight ratios.

My 17' Burro wide-body towed very differently behind the Excursion than the Toyota compact truck 4wd pickup I had before the Tundra. The Toyota, even though a V6 with a 5000 lb tow rating struggled with the Burro just from frontal area, and it lost about 8mpg towing, down to 11 mpg generally, and I pulled it several thousand miles with the Toyota. The Excursion didn't feel any different, and only lost about 1mpg towing it, a combination of aerodynamics and greater reserve horsepower to weight ratio. The Burro really wasn't much taller nor wider than the Excursion. The net result was that the 7000 lb Excursion actually got better gas mileage towing the Burro (with three passengers) than did the Toyota with me alone! I averaged 14 mpg on a trip to Chicago with the Excursion towing the Burro with three passengers, luggage and load.

I just thought it prudent that you recognize going in that a $40k SSR is not the ideal tow vehicle, that you'll be loading it to near max, and that because of the aerodynamics of the combination there is the potential for it to have as poor, if not a worse an experience with it towing than towing the Scamp with the Trans Am.

Roger

[Jeff G.]

Hi Roger...

Your points are well taken regarding aerodynamics of the tow vehicles. I've given considerable thought to that. What is puzzling though in this situation is that I've towed larger flat fronted box type wood/aluminum trailers with the Neon and VW Beetle with NO problems of 'feeling that its there" of any kind. Not even comparable to the Scamp. I had no problems pulling 70mph up hills with capacity to go faster if I wanted.

As far as the SSR goes, its a common misconception about its towing abilities. The 2500lb rating is based solely on the SSR's limited cooling system due to the constraints of the small engine compartment and overworked electric fan. There is an aftermarket towing kit accessory fan available for the SSR which adds a second fan to the system. Besides the cooling system constraints of the SSR, the truck has the exact same underpinnings as the Trailblazer SS, with the LS2 400 hp engine. The Trailblazer SS's towing rating is 6800lbs. The only difference is the cooling system of the SSR. I'm not saying the SSR can tow 6800lbs...but I am saying the same vehicle with a different body and cooling system CAN. So, the limitations on the SSR being a "monster" tow vehicle are only because of the cooling system limitations. The engine, transmission, frame, suspsension, rear axle, etc are definitely up to the task. Also, the SSR is a LARGE truck in person. Its not lightweight, which is its downfall as a performance vehicle. It weighs nearly 6000 pounds. It is a VERY overly-heavy porker! The 250lb tongue weight is based on the hitch that comes with the truck, as its a custom piece that locks into a rear crossmember so that it disappears when not in use. SSR owners have had standard 2" receiver hitches mounted to their trucks without problems. But, if you use the factory hitch, 250lbs is the limit.

My point here is that the SSR will easily handle 2500lbs and with slight modifications to the cooling system and a standard Class III or IV hitch easily double that.

Your comparisons between the Tundra and the Excursion are very well explained and completely expected. The Excursion has so much of its own heft and a big V8 to move itself; overcoming aerodynamic drag was designed into having an adequate engine for the job. A small tiny trailer behind such a large powerful vehicle shouldn't make a difference since a properly equipped Excursion should only struggle with the largest trailers.

A lighter weight Toyota 6 cylinder is all together a different beast, and I would expect any trailer to be felt behind it; mainly due to the much increased resistance and lack of torque. Torque is what moves trailers...unless you have a lead sled like my Scamp!!!

That being said, I realize what you say about the SSR's aerodynamics; although its massive power and structural design should overcome this easily. The heft should add to its stability for towing.

Bottom line...these trailers' sole purpose is to be able to be towed easily by a smaller vehicle...otherwise, if you need a giant truck to tow them easily, why not just get a 30ft fifth wheel? It defeats the main purpose of having a tiny little trailer.

[Pete Dumbleton]

I dunno about the Miami area, but there are frame and axle shops on the east side of Tampa that some of my friends have used.

[Loren G. Hedahl]

After the first trip I took with our Scamp 15, about 3500 miles, the tires on the Scamp seemed to show extensive wear. So I replaced them with new.

The next trip, about the same distance, wore the new tires about half. So I did a rough alignment check with a tape measure and found about 1/2 inch toe-out.

To find an alignment shop, I checked with a welding shop that specialized in custom trailers and trailer hitches. They sent me to an alignment shop in the Tacoma, WA area that had a lot of experience with various trailer axles.

Once there, within an hour the job was done. The alignment procedure involves bending the axle. It seems pretty crude, nothing more than a chain, a couple of large C-clamps and a hydraulic jack. With the Scamp setting on a Frame machine, they take measurements, hook up the chain and bend the axle with the jack, release the jack, take a few more measurements, repeat the sequence a couple of times and it's done.

In my case I didn't notice any increase in towability, pulling force or stability. In that respect I was a bit disappointed, not that it ever towed badly, I just expected that I would notice some improvement. But it sure cut the tire wear.

My tow vehicle was a 78 Chev K1500 4wd with a 350 and a standard 4 speed. It weighs about twice what the Scamp weighs, so that would have an effect on towability.

I have also towed a 26 ft Avion extensively with the same pickup. Travelling through western Texas and through New Mexico in a heavy head-wind the truck didn't have enough power to use 4th. I would wait until a semi pulled around me, then try to draft behind it, but even then I could only stay in 4th a short distance as my draft distance would increase and increase.

I don't think the above adds much to solving your problem, but like several have mentioned any mechanical friction creates heat. However aerodynamics don't. But air resistance goes up with the square of the speed. This translates into about twice the power needed to travel at 60 mph with a 30 mph head wind as with no head wind, if my understanding is correct.

Good luck, and be sure to post the solution when you figure it out. That what makes this forum such a valuable resource is that we don't give up.

[Patrick M.]

So Jeff, any update on your effort to solve this problem?

[gillian s]

you mention flood damage. is it possible that the fiberglass or wood floor is saturated with water? this could be encapsulated and conceivably not leaking at all. i have heard that weigh ins are notoriously inaccurate; what if the heavy weight of the scamp was not due to your extra evacuation stores, but instead due to water trapped in the hull? the water could also relocate when being towed to the front end adding to your problem, like a hidden lake.
i've towed a 13' scamp and a 13' boler with an old heap of a chevy caprice on its last legs and i have to remind myself to slow down, even on big hills when i suddenly notice i'm up to 65 and the wind is hitting the trailer head on as the car is low and sleek.

[Jeff G.]

Sorry for starting this thread then not replying for several weeks.

I have been really busy...but have progressed some on the trailer.

I purchased an SSR to tow it and got it set up (wiring, relays, airbags in the coils, auxillary cooling fan, Prodigy installed). Regarding the Scamp, I found a few interesting things.

First off, my wood isn't saturated (I'm fixing the rot as we speak). Secondly, when I removed my wheels and hubs, the last place that packed the wheel bearings for me had the wheel nuts WAY too tight. So tight in fact that the races on each bearing had a slight ridge worn in them after 4000 miles. Also, two different types of grease were mixed. My spindle on the driver's side also has a burnish mark toward the inner bearing surface. I'm guessing all this combined was contributing to my difficulty pulling the trailer. Remember, when I jacked up the trailer with the bearings as I stated above the wheels spun pretty freely. I'm guessing that under high speeds/friction they were causing some resistance. At least I'm HOPING that that was the majority of the culprit.

I purchased my new lightweight aluminum wheels, American Racing Torq Thrust 15X6. I studded my hubs (to accept lug nuts), painted/cleaned/sealed them. I repacked the hubs/bearings with Valvoline Synthetic Wheel Bearing Grease as recommended by Dexter. I thoroughly cleaned/refurbished my brakes as well.

One thing to note...I bought the 1 1/16" bearing kit from Dyer's RV online. It comes with the bearings, races, cap, cotter pin, and a grease seal. BUT BE WARNED: THE GREASE SEAL WILL NOT FIT THIS DEXTER AXLE SPINDLE. I tried it, and installed it...its too small. The hub was very difficult to get on all the way, and I tightened it up. I didn't realize until I removed the other wheel that the grease seal was completely improper, so I removed the wheel and hub for the side I previously did. The seal was torn, ripped, and crumped up against the bearing seating surface. I had to clean up the original seals and re-use them. This wasted a lot of time because I had to repack the first hub. I have no CLUE as to why this bearing kit has the wrong grease seal in it; all the other parts were the same with correct part numbers. But, it was made in China. Just be careful when purchasing this kit.

BUT...

I haven't PULLED the trailer yet. I DO know that the wheels spin MUCH more free than they ever did (when jacking up the trailer they spin and spin and spin just from touching them). I want the least resistance possible.

I'm going on a trip in a week or so for a month. I will let everyone know if I solved my problem!!!


Thanks again,
Jeff

[Ron Wrighton]

Befor you take off on a 30 day trip, find a hill and make a test pull. If you fixed the problem it will ease your mind. If it still pulls like a brick than you can prepair yourself for problems that you might have. Maybe a membership in Good Sams would be a good idea. Eather way let us know. I have my fingers crossed for you.

Ronj

[Jeff G.]

Hi Ronj...

Thanks for the tip. I already have Good Sam...they towed me about 8 times on my last trip with my Caravan.

This time, I have a new SSR which is 400hp and 400lb/ft of torque. So, even if it IS still difficult to pull I probably (hopefully ha ha) won't feel it.

Besides rolling resistance, I can think of nothing else that would cause this unless the axle is out of alignment...but, some people here have had that problem, and had theirs fixed with no benefit noticed.

But...I'll let everyone know of my findings.


Thanks again,
Jeff