Help deciding on a tow vehicle

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Josh and Sonya W

Hi Steve & All,

I'm a Toyota lover; we have three of them, including a 98 Land Cruiser with 347K miles on it. Unfortunately, when we decided to start spending more time on the road, we "added" to our trailer collection (we've had a 17ft Casita since 97) and purchased a 2003 Bigfoot 25 RQ, knowing the LC couldn't handle the additional weight (about 5,300 lb empty vs 2200 for the Casita).

After doing a lot of reading on this site, I decided to go with my preference, which was, of course, a Tundra; we bought a CrewMax 4X4. It's a great truck, except for a few things I think could have been better designed. Gas mileage is pretty dismal at 17mpg on the road, and maybe 13 in the city, if I'm careful.

Towing the Bigfoot at a guesstimated 6300lb, about 400lb in the truck, and tongue weight of about 600 lb, the Tundra does pretty well on flat roads, though there is a lot of shifting going on with any small inclines and/or headwinds. Towing gas mileage is usually between 10-11 mpg; around eight if there are a lot of inclines.

I haven't completely proven this to myself yet, but gas mileage seems to go up by about 1mpg if I use midgrade gas, instead of regular. I found that to be true as well when I had a 96 4-Runner. I haven't done a cost analysis, the higher price of the gas probably doesn't make it worth the extra mpg. But the truck "feels" better (or maybe it's just me that feels better for the truck).

Unfortunately, I've been very disappointed with performance on climbs. We did a lot of ups and downs on our recent trip to Grand Teton National Park to see the eclipse (amazing place!) and then through Flaming Gorge in Utah. The Tundra made the climbs, but it was not fast, and the engine sounded strained, although I could mostly keep to around 2-2.2k rpm.

The real test was climbing through the Teton Pass coming out of Jackson Hole, WY. I had to put it into 2nd gear in some stretches to get even close to 20mph .

So, though I still love Toyota, I have to say (don't tell my wife) that I'm a bit disappointed with the Tundra. It's a good truck, and I'm counting on it lasting. I know it doesn't have the torque of a diesel, but I really thought it would do better in terms of hills, not to mention mountains. And the gas mileage, umm...sucks. Still better than the LC/Casita combo, especially in terms of gas consumption and cost (LC demands premium), but I really expected/hoped-for more.

Josh

I am not brand loyal . I've owned Chevy , GMC ,Ford , Dodge and Ram trucks
When I bought my 2014 truck , I went to our 3 local auto dealers
, gave them a list of what I wanted and asked for a OTD price
The Ram dealer was the lowest by several thousand dollars so I bought a Ram . When I buy my next new truck it won't necessarily be a Ram , it may well be a Chevy or a Ford.
Right now I am leaning toward the Ford F150 !!
Loyalty to one brand is great for the manufacturer and dealer but there is little to no gain for me.

[Josh and Sonya W]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

I am not brand loyal . I've owned Chevy , GMC ,Ford , Dodge and Ram trucks
When I bought my 2014 truck , I went to our 3 local auto dealers
, gave them a list of what I wanted and asked for a OTD price
The Ram dealer was the lowest by several thousand dollars so I bought a Ram . When I buy my next new truck it won't necessarily be a Ram , it may well be a Chevy or a Ford.
Right now I am leaning toward the Ford F150 !!
Loyalty to one brand is great for the manufacturer and dealer but there is little to no gain for me.

Can't fault your logic. Guess I'm still coming from a past of reviewing repair histories of Toyota vs US made vehicles. I'll definitely take a broader look if and when we think about another tow vehicle.

[Dooitslo]

Hello to all from Dallas. Like some of you I also have been doing some research although I already purchased my tow vehicle: 2018 Nissan Pathfinder with full tow package. I decided on a Shadow Cruiser 225RBS and all the specs suggest that I am within the limits for towing, any thoughts?

[Mike_L]

I can tow my 3500 lb bumper hitch trailer with my Ranger. I also tow it with my 1/2 ton. My F250 Diesel does the best job of all, not only for power but for stability in the wind as well.

[padlin00]

I have the 5.0TA and pull it with an 2012 F150 XLT 4x4 3.5 Ecoboost with max tow, max payload, and an 8' bed. Had a GMC 1500 before the Ford.

The 3.5 has more then enough power, and I do mean more then enough. Mileage is okay at about 13 towing, somewhere around 15-16 not towing. Standard XLT seats are just okay, can get uncomfortable on a long day.

If I were to buy a new truck today I'd check to see what models of the F150 I could get with the max payload pkg, bigger gas tank, tow pkg of some sort, tow mirrors, and the most comfortable seats. I like the extra power of the 3.5 EB, and would get it again but with the 10 speed transmission. Ideally it'd have the super cab and a 6.5' bed.

I'd also look at the GM 1500's and see what they have that's comparable as they are, or at least were, more comfortable.

[Ed Harris]

All of this but no mention of exactly which Tundra??????

I have towed with my '01 V6 Longbed 2wd,'01 V8 4wd Longbed and now recently got an '07 5.7l DC 2wd and I promise you all 3 have pretty different capabilities and manners on the road so it is pretty important for your thoughts here to include this information I think.

Likewise the post above talks about comparing Tundras but without mention of drivetrain which makes it tough to comprehend entirely for those who realize there are/were many options for powering the Tundra.

They offer 3 different engines right now.

Just in the interest of actually understanding the facts.

Originally Posted by Josh and Sonya W

Hi Steve & All,

I'm a Toyota lover; we have three of them, including a 98 Land Cruiser with 347K miles on it. Unfortunately, when we decided to start spending more time on the road, we "added" to our trailer collection (we've had a 17ft Casita since 97) and purchased a 2003 Bigfoot 25 RQ, knowing the LC couldn't handle the additional weight (about 5,300 lb empty vs 2200 for the Casita).

After doing a lot of reading on this site, I decided to go with my preference, which was, of course, a Tundra; we bought a CrewMax 4X4. It's a great truck, except for a few things I think could have been better designed. Gas mileage is pretty dismal at 17mpg on the road, and maybe 13 in the city, if I'm careful.

Towing the Bigfoot at a guesstimated 6300lb, about 400lb in the truck, and tongue weight of about 600 lb, the Tundra does pretty well on flat roads, though there is a lot of shifting going on with any small inclines and/or headwinds. Towing gas mileage is usually between 10-11 mpg; around eight if there are a lot of inclines.

I haven't completely proven this to myself yet, but gas mileage seems to go up by about 1mpg if I use midgrade gas, instead of regular. I found that to be true as well when I had a 96 4-Runner. I haven't done a cost analysis, the higher price of the gas probably doesn't make it worth the extra mpg. But the truck "feels" better (or maybe it's just me that feels better for the truck).

Unfortunately, I've been very disappointed with performance on climbs. We did a lot of ups and downs on our recent trip to Grand Teton National Park to see the eclipse (amazing place!) and then through Flaming Gorge in Utah. The Tundra made the climbs, but it was not fast, and the engine sounded strained, although I could mostly keep to around 2-2.2k rpm.

The real test was climbing through the Teton Pass coming out of Jackson Hole, WY. I had to put it into 2nd gear in some stretches to get even close to 20mph .

So, though I still love Toyota, I have to say (don't tell my wife) that I'm a bit disappointed with the Tundra. It's a good truck, and I'm counting on it lasting. I know it doesn't have the torque of a diesel, but I really thought it would do better in terms of hills, not to mention mountains. And the gas mileage, umm...sucks. Still better than the LC/Casita combo, especially in terms of gas consumption and cost (LC demands premium), but I really expected/hoped-for more.

Josh

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Dooitslo

Hello to all from Dallas. Like some of you I also have been doing some research although I already purchased my tow vehicle: 2018 Nissan Pathfinder with full tow package. I decided on a Shadow Cruiser 225RBS and all the specs suggest that I am within the limits for towing, any thoughts?

Never heard of or had any experience with that particular vehicle or trailer so NO!

[thrifty bill]

Originally Posted by Dooitslo

Hello to all from Dallas. Like some of you I also have been doing some research although I already purchased my tow vehicle: 2018 Nissan Pathfinder with full tow package. I decided on a Shadow Cruiser 225RBS and all the specs suggest that I am within the limits for towing, any thoughts?

I would not consider towing a 26 foot long traditional trailer (think wider than molded fiberglass) with a Pathfinder. Ignore dry weight, have them run it across a scale with full propane tanks, all the options you want, and batteries. Then add something for the cargo you are going to pack, at least 500 pounds or so. With that total weight, multiply by 13% and you will be close to your tongue weight.

You are going to be very close to your max tow weight. Payload and hitch weight limits come into play as well.

Since you already have the Pathfinder, look up the hitch weight limit in the owners manual and the payload limit should be on the drivers door jamb.

RV dealers are known for telling buyers anything to sell their trailers. And of course, one model higher, two foot longer, and the RVs are SO MUCH ROOMIER! Each foot adds more space. So buyers without towing experience tend to get sold trailers that are too big for their TV. Been there done that! It happened to me. We went to buy a 19 foot fifth wheel. Salesman showed us the 22 footer, wow, it had so much more room. He assured us our TV could pull it, "No Problem". Well, if 29 MPH up a steep grade, with steam rolling out the hood, is not a problem, I don't know what a problem is.

Once you are on the road, pulling that mountain grade, that RV salesman is long gone and you are on your own. If you are like me, at that point, you are cussing and swearing, but I also kicked myself in the arse for believing the salesman.

Remember who has to tow that trailer. Hint, its not the salesman.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Josh and Sonya W

Hi Steve & All,

I'm a Toyota lover; we have three of them, including a 98 Land Cruiser with 347K miles on it. Unfortunately, when we decided to start spending more time on the road, we "added" to our trailer collection (we've had a 17ft Casita since 97) and purchased a 2003 Bigfoot 25 RQ, knowing the LC couldn't handle the additional weight (about 5,300 lb empty vs 2200 for the Casita).

After doing a lot of reading on this site, I decided to go with my preference, which was, of course, a Tundra; we bought a CrewMax 4X4. It's a great truck, except for a few things I think could have been better designed. Gas mileage is pretty dismal at 17mpg on the road, and maybe 13 in the city, if I'm careful.

Towing the Bigfoot at a guesstimated 6300lb, about 400lb in the truck, and tongue weight of about 600 lb, the Tundra does pretty well on flat roads, though there is a lot of shifting going on with any small inclines and/or headwinds. Towing gas mileage is usually between 10-11 mpg; around eight if there are a lot of inclines.

I haven't completely proven this to myself yet, but gas mileage seems to go up by about 1mpg if I use midgrade gas, instead of regular. I found that to be true as well when I had a 96 4-Runner. I haven't done a cost analysis, the higher price of the gas probably doesn't make it worth the extra mpg. But the truck "feels" better (or maybe it's just me that feels better for the truck).

Unfortunately, I've been very disappointed with performance on climbs. We did a lot of ups and downs on our recent trip to Grand Teton National Park to see the eclipse (amazing place!) and then through Flaming Gorge in Utah. The Tundra made the climbs, but it was not fast, and the engine sounded strained, although I could mostly keep to around 2-2.2k rpm.

The real test was climbing through the Teton Pass coming out of Jackson Hole, WY. I had to put it into 2nd gear in some stretches to get even close to 20mph .

So, though I still love Toyota, I have to say (don't tell my wife) that I'm a bit disappointed with the Tundra. It's a good truck, and I'm counting on it lasting. I know it doesn't have the torque of a diesel, but I really thought it would do better in terms of hills, not to mention mountains. And the gas mileage, umm...sucks. Still better than the LC/Casita combo, especially in terms of gas consumption and cost (LC demands premium), but I really expected/hoped-for more.

Josh

I have to admire you for the honesty you displayed in your post.
Most Toyota owners are not willing to ever admit that the vehicle they bought and own is not the best on the road or that it has issues !
Ford , Chevy ,& Ram all build fine trucks but none of them are perfect either or fit everyone's needs.

Again a very enlightening and truthful post. THANK YOU

[Josh and Sonya W]

Originally Posted by Ed Harris

All of this but no mention of exactly which Tundra??????

I have towed with my '01 V6 Longbed 2wd,'01 V8 4wd Longbed and now recently got an '07 5.7l DC 2wd and I promise you all 3 have pretty different capabilities and manners on the road so it is pretty important for your thoughts here to include this information I think.

Likewise the post above talks about comparing Tundras but without mention of drivetrain which makes it tough to comprehend entirely for those who realize there are/were many options for powering the Tundra.

They offer 3 different engines right now.

Just in the interest of actually understanding the facts.

Hi Ed,

Didn't mean to leave anything out or get you riled.

I purchased a new, 2015 4X4 Tundra CrewMax SR5 with the 5.7L V8, 381 hp, 401 ft-lb torque,engine. It has the tow package; six-speed automatic trans with sequential shift, tow/haul mode, trans-cooler, extended mirrors, and whatever else comes with that package. It has a 4.3 rear differential.

Truthfully, I wasn't aware that there are different drive-train options for that model. Were there other choices I could have/should have made that might have improved on the performance I reported?

Be nice Ed, you came on a bit strong with your previous reply. I'm a retired aquaculturist, not a vehicle guru. I just like things that work well for a very long time.

Let me know if there is any other info on the truck you'd like to see, and especially, if you think there are other models/options for the Tundra that I should have chosen.

Thanks,
Josh

[Ed Harris]

Originally Posted by Josh and Sonya W

Hi Ed,

Didn't mean to leave anything out or get you riled.

I purchased a new, 2015 4X4 Tundra CrewMax SR5 with the 5.7L V8, 381 hp, 401 ft-lb torque,engine. It has the tow package; six-speed automatic trans with sequential shift, tow/haul mode, trans-cooler, extended mirrors, and whatever else comes with that package. It has a 4.3 rear differential.

Truthfully, I wasn't aware that there are different drive-train options for that model. Were there other choices I could have/should have made that might have improved on the performance I reported?

Be nice Ed, you came on a bit strong with your previous reply. I'm a retired aquaculturist, not a vehicle guru. I just like things that work well for a very long time.

Let me know if there is any other info on the truck you'd like to see, and especially, if you think there are other models/options for the Tundra that I should have chosen.

Thanks,
Josh

Not at all I was just pointing out that without that info it us impossible to know exactly your situation.

Yours is spec'd just like mine and I think the most powerful towing option Toyota offers.

Nothing personal just wanted to know as I said.

[Josh and Sonya W]

Originally Posted by Ed Harris

Not at all I was just pointing out that without that info it us impossible to know exactly your situation.

Yours is spec'd just like mine and I think the most powerful towing option Toyota offers.

Nothing personal just wanted to know as I said.

Good to know, thanks Ed.

So I'm wondering if you've had a similar experience to mine in terms of mountain climbing with your Tundra (assuming a trailer as heavy as the Bigfoot 25RQ; estimated about 6,300 lb loaded)?

Also, I wonder what experience other people have had with similar trailers being pulled up mountain roads with various Fords or other trucks.

Thanks,
Josh

[Glenn Baglo]

"Unfortunately, I've been very disappointed with performance on climbs. We did a lot of ups and downs on our recent trip to Grand Teton National Park to see the eclipse (amazing place!) and then through Flaming Gorge in Utah. The Tundra made the climbs, but it was not fast, and the engine sounded strained, although I could mostly keep to around 2-2.2k rpm."

I don't understand the reluctance to use the RPMs that are available. Redline on my RAV4 V6 is more than 6,000 RPM.

[Borden]

Originally Posted by rbryan

True enough. But you'd have to define what "bigger" means, since as has been pointed out, an F150 can tow any molded FG rig with ease. And then there's the fuel economy, which does add up over the long haul, and the ease of driving and parking when you're not towing.

If I needed a 3/4 ton truck for purposes that have nothing to do with towing a small trailer or camping, then I'd go with that.

Agree about the gas on long tips it can really add up and the savings can be used on fun

[Josh and Sonya W]

Originally Posted by Glenn Baglo

"Unfortunately, I've been very disappointed with performance on climbs. We did a lot of ups and downs on our recent trip to Grand Teton National Park to see the eclipse (amazing place!) and then through Flaming Gorge in Utah. The Tundra made the climbs, but it was not fast, and the engine sounded strained, although I could mostly keep to around 2-2.2k rpm."

I don't understand the reluctance to use the RPMs that are available. Redline on my RAV4 V6 is more than 6,000 RPM.

Hi Glenn,

Hadn't really considered that. I was running close to 4k RPM in the sections where I mentioned trying to make 20MPH in second gear. True enough, I've always considered that running at high RPM generally puts a lot more stress and wear&tear on an engine, and I usually try to avoid doing that, except for very short periods of time.

I started Googling the question, and was quickly overwhelmed by discussions/arguments way above my level of understanding. I am very careful about changing oil and transmission fluids and filters, along with other maintenance. That's part of how I think I've gotten to 347K miles on my (sadly) soon to be sold 1998 Land Cruiser.

To me, running the Tundra (with 6k+ pounds in tow) at higher than "normal" RPM (I think about 2.2K) for extended periods in order to keep up speed "feels" like not such a good idea, if I'm concerned about longevity, not to mention gas mileage.

True, on those steep climbs, I didn't have to keep that up for long. However, I was running at 3K RPM and 20-25 MPH in a 45MPH zone for quite long periods because most of the road was two lane and I was blocking traffic.

But even on fairly flat highway driving, I would have to run close to or at 3K RPM with the engine shifting to lower gears, in order to make 65-70 MPH (if I remember correctly), and this of course does affect MPG. So for the most part, I stayed below 60MPH, and didn't use cruise control.

Aside from gas consumption, am I wrong about this? Is it OK for the engine to run at higher than normal cruising RPM for hours, when the Tundra is pulling a heavy load? I'd really like to know cause my wife keeps questioning my choice of the Tundra whenever I push it a bit harder and she hears the engine roaring , or a GMC or Ford goes zipping past us pulling a 30ft stick trailer .

I really appreciate the input; hope I'm not boring the OP.

Thanks,
Josh

[Josh and Sonya W]

Here is a link to one discussion about RPM and towing I found online. Comments by "blackdawg" are particularly interesting.

Towing RPM's (Gas) - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum

[stevebaz]

Look in your owners manual and see where peak torque RPM is. Engines are designed to run up to peak torque. They can still rev higher but they are not going to pull harder. Babying the engine at 2200 rpm when you really need the power is probably doing more harm than good especially if you have an automatic transmission.

[Josh and Sonya W]

Originally Posted by stevebaz

Look in your owners manual and see where peak torque RPM is. Engines are designed to run up to peak torque. They can still rev higher but they are not going to pull harder. Babying the engine at 2200 rpm when you really need the power is probably doing more harm than good especially if you have an automatic transmission.

401 ft-lb at 3600 rpm. I'm starting to get the point, thanks for your comment. That link to an RPM discussion I sent earlier seems to be saying something similar, especially in terms of trying to maintain lower RPM in overdrive. I don't do that, I always run in tow/haul mode when towing.

It does make sense to let the computer make the decisions with an automatic. It does drive me a bit crazy to have the transmission shifting so much, so I basically ran several thousand miles without using cruise control, and doing some of my own manual shifting, opting for a lower gear (usually 4th) to keep it from shifting between 4th, 5th and 6th, or just slowing down a bit to reduce the shifting.

After this string of info, I'll probably change my habits on the next trip.

This has all been very helpful, thanks for everyone's comments.

Josh

[Mike Magee]

I think the higher RPM "sounds" like the engine is working harder, when really that sound means the engine is getting more work done and doing it more efficiently (assuming those higher RPMs get it into a better torque band). The sound tends to bug me, too, but I think it's because I am not accustomed to hearing it and therefore it sounds unnatural... and my mind equates 'unnatural' and 'unfamiliar' with 'possibly something bad'. It's sort of a knee-jerk response that I work to un-learn.

[tractors1]

Originally Posted by Mike Magee

I think the higher RPM "sounds" like the engine is working harder, when really that sound means the engine is getting more work done and doing it more efficiently (assuming those higher RPMs get it into a better torque band). The sound tends to bug me, too, but I think it's because I am not accustomed to hearing it and therefore it sounds unnatural... and my mind equates 'unnatural' and 'unfamiliar' with 'possibly something bad'. It's sort of a knee-jerk response that I work to un-learn.

It bugged my non-mechanical wife so much she insisted I get a truck with a bigger engine!

So I did.........