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Old 06-16-2019, 07:05 PM   #21
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We all have our biases, that's for sure

It's hard for me to trust anything not a Toyota or Honda, all problems aside. But I can't definitively prove that my bias is more or less right than anyone elses. My experience with Toyota has led me to my beliefs, but I know people who talk the same way about many of the other brands, so, there you go.
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Old 06-22-2019, 10:42 AM   #22
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As the owner of a Toyota 4.7 V8 I'd recommend staying away from the old V8 4runner and get as new a 4runner as you can afford (if you are set on a 4runner).

The 4.7 will last (two million mile tundras prove that), but it gets pitiful fuel economy and is prone to exhaust leaks (which can be expensive to fix if you can't diy). Pretty much any V8 4runner or gx470 or tundra around here for sale will have the cel on.

The 4.6 V8 is better imho, but that means stepping up to a gx460 or 2010 tundra. Fuel economy is better than the 4.7 and 5.7 and power is better than the 4.7. Of course it's variations on poor fuel economy, but iirc the 4.6 is comparable to the 4.0 V6.

If I were buying a new truck I'd be looking at an f150 with the 2.7 EcoBoost. I know a few people with them that are super happy. Great fuel economy, plenty of power to tow.

I test drove a new 2018 4runner when I was looking at new vehicles. I love Toyotas (have 2). But I couldn't justify a brand new one. Everything about it is dated. I was hoping 2019 would bring a new drivetrain and modern entertainment so I waited and was disappointed. I'll buy a 4runner when it has more than 5 gears and supports android auto. 5 speed auto in 2019?! Ugh.

Kia Telluride looks interesting, but it won't go where the 4runner will. Wrangler will get me everywhere but I really don't want a Wrangler. 4runner is kind of in a class if its own.
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Old 06-22-2019, 10:46 AM   #23
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We previously towed our 17' Casita SD with a '97 4Runner V6 4WD 5-speed manual that I owned since new. I installed Airlift air shocks to help with the squat that was inherit with that generation way before we bought the Casita. In my opinion it was not a very good match. The 4Runner seemed low on torque on the climbs and had to shift down to 2nd or 3rd when ascending many of the grades here in California. Between the air shocks and the Andersen WDH was able to level the vehicle pretty well. Back when the 4Runner was newer I towed a Boston Whaler Montauk which was roughly 2,000 pounds fully rigged and was quite noticeable when towing it. The 4Runner was a very capable off road vehicle but was not ideal for towing above 2,000 pounds. I miss the 4Runner from time to time, it was super reliable and easy to wrench on, but we needed a more capable tow vehicle.
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Old 06-22-2019, 11:10 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by thrifty bill View Post
I've owned several Toyotas over the years as well. But as far as problem free longevity, Toyota has had its share of problems. Multiple recalls per year on the 4 Runner and hundreds of Technical Service Bulletins.

Toyota 4Runner Recalls by Year - Toyota Problems

Toyota 4Runner Technical Service Bulletins (TSBs) - Toyota Problems


The Tacoma in particular had a recall on the FRAME for rotting out. That frame recall also included the Sequoia and Tundra. Right now there is a class action lawsuit from 4 Runner owners on failing frames that were not covered by the recall.


https://www.autoblog.com/2016/11/14/...-truck-frames/

Ford is not immune to problems for sure, as well as Chevy and Dodge. Still people accustomed to perfection from Toyota have been disappointed.
A lot of people swear by and swear at Toyotas
Most of the ones that swear by them seem to live in
warm dry climates where they don’t use road salt
For me the tacoma and tundra are 20th century trucks being sold at 21st century prices . The other problem is their vehicles fall apart from rust long before the engine wears out . I drove rust buckets with rust holes in the doors , trunk & floors when I was young , those days are long gone .
A little body rust is one thing , frame failure is another.
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Old 06-22-2019, 11:42 AM   #25
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Hefty 6 with great gas mikeage

If you want to stick with a 6 cylinder, have oodles of power, high torque, and avoid the low gas mileage you’d get with a V-8, I recommend Ford’s 3.5 EcoBoost 6 cylinder. I get 22+ on the highway and 15 mpg towing. It’s good up to 11,000 pounds towing. I only wish I could get it in a medium sized SUV. with the same engine. I have the F-150 with extended cab... a great tow vehicle, but too large for my druthers.
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Old 06-22-2019, 11:56 AM   #26
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I’ve definitely had to deal with the rust. Not sure why Toyota can’t seem to figure that out. My Tacoma is part of the years with a frame recall. The first line of Toyota Tacomas built in the US. They forgot to spray protectant on the frames. I live in Montana and the truck spent the first 6 or so years of its life in Utah. Cold climates but limited salt. I have one little spot of surface rust on my frame, nothing more. 21 years old.

I know you can say this about just about any brand, I guess, but my experience with this truck is: 21 years, 260,000 miles with nothing but routine maintenance. Even has the original clutch. No little problems that keep sending it to the shop. I don’t make much money and can’t buy new. So I need something that is reliable at high mileage, without nickel and diming me on little repairs. Toyotas have always done that for me. What good is an engine that last forever if the truck is always in the shop for other things?

Obviously other people have had different experiences. For towing, Toyota has never been the first choice. Probably never will be. Towing is only one thing I do with my truck. First and foremost it needs to start and run, every time.
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Old 06-22-2019, 01:19 PM   #27
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If you want to stick with a 6 cylinder, have oodles of power, high torque, and avoid the low gas mileage you’d get with a V-8, I recommend Ford’s 3.5 EcoBoost 6 cylinder. I get 22+ on the highway and 15 mpg towing. It’s good up to 11,000 pounds towing. I only wish I could get it in a medium sized SUV. with the same engine. I have the F-150 with extended cab... a great tow vehicle, but too large for my druthers.
I rented the latest gen expedition with the 3.5EB. Sweet ride, but HUGE. I got 24mpg with mixed driving which blew my mind. But, too big and too expensive.

The 2020 Explorer is now a RWD based platform (rather than the previous gen fwd platform). It doesn't have the truck 3.5, instead is has a new 3.0 twin turbo ecoboost making 365 horsepower and 380 lb-ft of torque. Same 10-speed transmission as your truck (presumably). I was super impressed by that transmission in the Expedition.

Specs-wise it seems cool. But I'm sure the build I'd want is out of my reach and more importantly I don't like the look (of course haven't seen it in person). Seems all the SUVs in that size range are kind of strange now. Boxes with rounded off corners. Gotta be slippery to compete on fuel economy these days, but it's making them all look disturbingly alike and ugly.
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Old 06-22-2019, 03:40 PM   #28
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I guess I’m also one of the few who don’t want all the gadgets. I don’t want my truck connected to the internet. No touch screen. No Bluetooth. No gps.

Of course I agree that you shouldn’t pay more for less.
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Old 06-22-2019, 07:36 PM   #29
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FWIW, Ford Ranger Super Crew (four full sized doors) has an overall length of 211 inches. Honda Ridgeline is 210 inches in length. 2020 Ford Explorer has an overall length of 199 inches. So its a 12 inch difference versus the Ranger, 11 inches versus the Ridgeline.

F150 is quite a bit longer.
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Old 06-22-2019, 07:40 PM   #30
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I rented the latest gen expedition with the 3.5EB. Sweet ride, but HUGE. I got 24mpg with mixed driving which blew my mind. But, too big and too expensive.

The 2020 Explorer is now a RWD based platform (rather than the previous gen fwd platform). It doesn't have the truck 3.5, instead is has a new 3.0 twin turbo ecoboost making 365 horsepower and 380 lb-ft of torque. Same 10-speed transmission as your truck (presumably). I was super impressed by that transmission in the Expedition.

Specs-wise it seems cool. But I'm sure the build I'd want is out of my reach and more importantly I don't like the look (of course haven't seen it in person). Seems all the SUVs in that size range are kind of strange now. Boxes with rounded off corners. Gotta be slippery to compete on fuel economy these days, but it's making them all look disturbingly alike and ugly.
I often see people describing a vehicle as “TOO BIG” or “ HUGE” but I never see a definition of what “TOO BIG” or “HUGE” actually is . Is there a definitive number or size ?
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:10 PM   #31
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Takes up one and a half Walmart parking spaces.
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Old 06-22-2019, 09:32 PM   #32
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I often see people describing a vehicle as “TOO BIG” or “ HUGE” but I never see a definition of what “TOO BIG” or “HUGE” actually is . Is there a definitive number or size ?
A Suburban is too big. For us. Maybe not for you.
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Old 06-22-2019, 09:35 PM   #33
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ATF at 250 degrees is far more than “breaking a sweat” in my opinion. I start to get real nervous at 230 or so. I believe the trans warning light comes on at 260. I tow a 21’ Escape with a 2007 4Runner V8 4wd.
At least in our 2017 4Runner, the warning light comes on when either the torque converter fluid output temp > 302, or the fluid temp in the pan > 285.

I will probably have the fluid replaced at 50K. Half of the 41K on our truck is towing miles.

Drove neighbor's Duramax Chevy PU yesterday with one ton of hay aboard. Trans temp never exceeded 145. Not sure where they're measuring it, but it's a big Allison automatic. Probably loafing.


Oh yes - the cruise control on our 4Runner is worthless for towing - won't hold taller gears, except on very flat roads with no wind.

I did buy the 4Runner BECAUSE it had the tried and true 5-speed AT, and the normally aspirated 4.0L V6. I'm shooting for 300K from it without major work.

I had a '99 Tacoma with the frame recall, but where I live, no salt is used on the roads, so I never had a problem. Apparently Dana Corporation, maker of the frames, in Tijuana, B.C.N. did not dip the frames in the anti-rust treatment.
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Old 06-23-2019, 07:43 AM   #34
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4Runner vs. FJ LandCruiser

It is true that the FJ and the 4 Runner share the same drive train.

They are both heavy duty off road vehicles.

The FJ LandCruiser is manufactured 100% in Japan...reason is the
frame (military grade frame that is only made in Japan in very limited
quantities). This frame is considered to be the strongest in production and still used in all military grade Toyota offerings sold worldwide.
The LandCruiser is no longer Offered for sale in the U.S.A.
It was always intended to be a limited production vehicle. Designed from the ground up as an off road true SUV. This truck weighs just under 5,000 lbs.

Towing.....I installed a heavy duty transmission cooler in my FJ the day I got it.
Also added a electric break controller.
I towed a 26 foot travel trailer that weighed just under 5,000 pounds.
The combined rig rolled down the interstate like a dream. I did have a weight distribution hitch and dual sway control added to complete the package.
For the most part it was like I wasn’t
towing anything.....speeds from 55 MPH to 70 MPH were never a problem.
The Green Mountains of Vermont and the Great Smoky Mountains in North Carolina...NO PROBLEM !!!

Now that the FJ LandCruiser is no longer offered in the U.S.A. Is seems that the 4 Runner has been given a new look and some additional mussel. Check with a Toyota dealer for updated tow ratings.
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Old 06-23-2019, 07:56 AM   #35
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Yeah, too big or too small is a personal thing (though obviously some people think of them as absolute statements). Personally I never want anything larger than a pre-05 Tacoma. But I'm pretty sure that's not possible anymore...Too big for me is any mid size and definitely full size. But I'm not sure that by the time I'm in the market, I'll have any choice. Of course things have changed before, they may change again. Who knows; by the time I'm able to buy a new vehicle, we may not be driving our own cars anymore.
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Old 06-23-2019, 08:42 AM   #36
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Takes up one and a half Walmart parking spaces.
I park in the back section of the parking lot , plenty of room and I get some exercise .
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:42 AM   #37
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Is seems that the 4 Runner has been given a new look and some additional mussel.

I prefer clams myself.
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:51 AM   #38
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Glenn, Suggest you try “Blue Point”. Oysters on the half shell.. Yummm !
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Old 06-24-2019, 05:01 PM   #39
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At least in our 2017 4Runner, the warning light comes on when either the torque converter fluid output temp > 302, or the fluid temp in the pan > 285.

I will probably have the fluid replaced at 50K. Half of the 41K on our truck is towing miles.

Drove neighbor's Duramax Chevy PU yesterday with one ton of hay aboard. Trans temp never exceeded 145. Not sure where they're measuring it, but it's a big Allison automatic. Probably loafing.


Oh yes - the cruise control on our 4Runner is worthless for towing - won't hold taller gears, except on very flat roads with no wind.

I did buy the 4Runner BECAUSE it had the tried and true 5-speed AT, and the normally aspirated 4.0L V6. I'm shooting for 300K from it without major work.

I had a '99 Tacoma with the frame recall, but where I live, no salt is used on the roads, so I never had a problem. Apparently Dana Corporation, maker of the frames, in Tijuana, B.C.N. did not dip the frames in the anti-rust treatment.


Those temperatures are encouraging, Ive not seen temps that high bandied about. Were those numbers in your owners manual? Since I believe we have the same transmission I would stress out a lot less on the uphills around here.
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Old 06-24-2019, 10:12 PM   #40
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Those temperatures are encouraging, Ive not seen temps that high bandied about. Were those numbers in your owners manual? Since I believe we have the same transmission I would stress out a lot less on the uphills around here.
This information is from Toyota Information System (techinfo.toyota.com). One can no longer buy a shop manual; instead, a subscription to TIS is available (and not cheap - I believe it's now $20 for two days, if you don't want/need a year's worth of access). The good news is that there is a wealth of information, and you can print/save pdfs.
The temps themselves are from a ScanGaugeII, connected to the OBD2 port under the dash.
A measure of the ATF's oxidation is available, to determine whether the fluid needs to be replaced. However, two dealers I spoke with wanted to charge me a full hour of tech time to obtain this information. Thus I will likely just change the fluid.
We live at the top of an 800' hill, and regularly get the torque converter measurement point up to 200 or so, not towing anything. The pan temp doesn't get that high.
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