I need a new tow vehicle, are automatics as good as manual transmissions nowadays?

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Raz

I came to the conclusion Toyota was making towing a profit center on their vehicles. John is correct, there was a tow package. ..

Judging from the price that Toyota gets for their hitches, I agree. However for the Sienna, which is marketed as having a tow rating of 3,500 lbs, there is NOT Toyota equipment at any price that will fully outfit it for towing my Scamp. I'm hoping my next tug (some years from years from now) is plug-n-play.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Raz

I came to the conclusion Toyota was making towing a profit center on their vehicles. John is correct, there was a tow package. It added $750 to the price. It had to be factory installed and only came on the V8. Every one I looked at was optioned to the hilt adding thousands extra to the price.

When it came time to replace the Tundra the old one had been replaced by the upsized Tacoma. I bought the Frontier instead. What a delight. Everything was plug and play. The local dealer had the harnesses for less than $100 and the hitch came from etrailer. Two hour install. Happy camper.

From what I've seen Nissan designs their trucks for towing where Toyota does not . If I bought a new vehicle for towing my trailer and then discovered that I then had to spend $2000 to $3000 more to actually get it tow ready I would be PIS_ED !!

My vehicle came from the factory with a receiver hitch , brake controller , 4&7 pin plug ins , transmission cooler , oil cooler , tow haul mode , heavy duty alternator , wider mirrors etc etc.
Why ? because it was designed and built to be a tow vehicle.

It seems that Toyota says one thing in their brochures but does the opposite in reality . If a vehicle is listed for towing 3500 lbs then it should have provisions to easily add a brake controller , should come with a 7 pin plug in.and not require that the rear suspension be totally redesigned.

[Jon in AZ]

Some people really like certain vehicles or manufacturers, like Toyota or Subaru, in spite of limited towing support from the manufacturer. Their reasons often have to do with other considerations than towing. The capability is there, comparable to other vehicles of similar design and tow rating. The lack of support means it takes more effort and money to get them set up for towing, but many are quite satisfied with the end result.

If all the extra fuss bothers you, buy something else. There are options. Plug-and-play gets you there faster, easier, and perhaps cheaper, but it's only as good as the components chosen by the manufacturer.

"Designed and built to be a tow vehicle" is a great attribute if that's all you use it for.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Raz

I came to the conclusion Toyota was making towing a profit center on their vehicles. John is correct, there was a tow package. It added $750 to the price. It had to be factory installed and only came on the V8. Every one I looked at was optioned to the hilt adding thousands extra to the price.

the tow package on my Tacoma includes a larger alternator, bigger battery, all the wiring and isolation relay, and if you have an automatic transmission, an additional transmission cooler... AND the hitch receiver. in 08, this package was only available on a V6 4x4 or 'prerunner' (which was a 2x4 model that had the 4x4 sized wheels and suspension), it was not available with the base 4 cyl motor.

each year, the combination of stuff in the tow package can vary a little, as can the trim packages its usually bundled with.

[Mike Magee]

Originally Posted by Raspy

Mike,

I'm certainly not "bound up by fear", just talking about basic common sense safety that effects everyone on the road. You listed the special techniques you use to tow with no trailer brakes, in order to not crash it, so obviously you are aware of the danger. State laws even require brakes above a certain weight.

I'm sorry you were not able to respond the the specific questions I posed in post 94. But I'm still curious why you would encourage some else to go without brakes? Seems like they are a good thing to me. Help me out here.

BTW, when I was a little kid, I didn't know any better and didn't have the ability to tell my father anything. Just an observer, not bragging.

Why, is quite simple: she has the Subaru and the trailer, and she deserves to be able to go out and enjoy them. You on the other hand are saying that she is SOL and cannot go camping because her Subie apparently cannot support trailer brakes! You are putting her in unnecessarily excessive fear that she's practically certain to kill someone if she tows without trailer brakes! This is absurd! If we could find statistics on deadly accidents per mile towed without trailer brakes, I believe the number would be very low. Most such towing occurs without incident, and most incidents are minor. So why do you want to throw such fear onto her?

I certainly will agree that having trailer brakes is far preferable as a safety measure. But a lack of same should be a reason for cautious use, and not a reason to park the trailer and never get any pleasure out of it.

Subaru engineers have rated the vehicle as safe to tow a brakeless trailer up to 1500 lbs. (as evidenced by the fact that there is no provision made for having a brake controller). Who are you to tell her she's doing something terribly dangerous? For Pete's sake, let the lady go camping and stop scaring her!

[steve dunham]

Raspy , as long as you post using common sense mixed with a concern for safety you open yourself up to ridicule.
Hang in there , there will always be people who believe they have the right to do what they want because they FEEL it's OK , right up to the time something goes wrong and they can blame others.

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by Mike Magee

I certainly will agree that having trailer brakes is far preferable as a safety measure.

I'm glad we agree on this and it's exactly what I've been saying. The rest is pretty hysterical and unrelated to my posts.

[rbryan]

Originally Posted by Raspy

I'm glad we agree on this and it's exactly what I've been saying. The rest is pretty hysterical and unrelated to my posts.

You advocated for a reasonable safety measure. Fear monger! [emoji23]

[Raz]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

Some people really like certain vehicles or manufacturers, like Toyota or Subaru, in spite of limited towing support from the manufacturer. Their reasons often have to do with other considerations than towing. The capability is there, comparable to other vehicles of similar design and tow rating. The lack of support means it takes more effort and money to get them set up for towing, but many are quite satisfied with the end result.

If all the extra fuss bothers you, buy something else. There are options. Plug-and-play gets you there faster, easier, and perhaps cheaper, but it's only as good as the components chosen by the manufacturer.

"Designed and built to be a tow vehicle" is a great attribute if that's all you use it for.
Attachment 115750

You seem to have missed the point. This has nothing to do with extra fuss. Both Gordan and I ran into the same issue, an advertised tow rating that exceeds the trailer brake threshold in any state and a manufacturer that threatens to void the warranty if one uses the vehicle per specification while meeting the legal requirements. It's a classic catch 22. It's nice to say buy something else if you know of the issue. Would you suspect you would void your warranty if you added a brake controller to a vehicle with a 4800 lb tow rating?

Just for the record I liked my Subaru but not as a tow vehicle and my Tundra was one of the nicest vehicles I've ever owned. Toyota made a big mistake upsizing it and trying to replace it with the Tacoma. When I went to look at the new Tacoma, the saleman couldn't stop talking about how upset his customers were. I chose the Frontier over the Tacoma because it was closer to my old Tundra and the quality has been just fine. The plug and play was a pleasent surprise.

[Raz]

In regard to Mindy's situation, adding a brake controller to a vehicle that does not have a pigtail for it means cutting into the wiring harness. Car dealerships don't want to do that and manufacturers don't sanction it. The manual transmission line is probably a way to get out of doing the job although from my experience there is a ring of truth there. Were it an automatic then a brake controller wouldn't work with it.

Clearly, a brake controller can be added to any vehicle by anyone with the skills to do it. Subarus are very, very popular here in the Frozen North. So much so that there are shops who specialize in servicing them. I would suggest Mindy find a private shop to do the job.

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by Raz

You seem to have missed the point...

I don't think so, and you have restated it quite well:

Originally Posted by Raz

...Clearly, a brake controller can be added to any vehicle by anyone with the skills to do it...I would suggest Mindy find a private shop to do the job.

That was the advice I gave some 60 posts ago, so I'm glad we are in agreement.

If competently done it does not in fact void the warranty, but the bullying stance of some manufacturers constitutes part of the "extra fuss."

There was a suggestion (by Gordon, I believe) that in this case there is really something about the Subaru that makes an aftermarket installation of a wired brake controller impossible. If that's the case, it would be the first I'm aware of in a vehicle with a tow rating that reaches the threshold for trailer brakes. At this point that remains speculation.

This whole conversation is of interest because I foresee a day when we become empty nesters and look to downsize our tow vehicle from a 3-row crossover to something smaller.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

...
There was a suggestion (by Gordon, I believe) that in this case there is really something about the Subaru that makes an aftermarket installation impossible. If that's the case, it would be a first in a vehicle with a tow rating that reaches the threshold for trailer brakes. At this point that remains speculation.
...

Lets be clear that I am not making that suggestion, I was just passing on what I heard. I just don't know much at all about Subaru's other than people have love affairs with them. I am however interested to learn more about this issue and the AuTOWbrake device (perhaps a new thread is appropriate). This is what I have heard:

The following statements are partial quotes from a Scamp Facebook group:

Ordered mine with brakes this past weekend. Was surprised by my salesman to hear I needed a unique controller for the Subaru that Scamp will install due to some braking issues that are specific to subaru.

------------

Jim told me they had a meeting about issues they had been made aware of with Subaru and will now recommend this controller and will do the install. I was told the controller on the Subaru will be installed outside the vehicle. I never heard of this either.

------------

I talked to Micah at Scamp and he said they are using the below brake mechanism for trailers that are using subaru as a TV -

https://autowbrake.com/

[Jon in AZ]

Right, and thanks for sharing the source of the information in your earlier post. I did look at Autowbrake's website at the time and it seemed a bit crude, so I'm guessing it's a fairly new product from a small company. I couldn't find a simple text description of the product anywhere.

I'll look forward to hearing more.

[Raz]

?The tough nut in installing a brake controller is finding the brake on signal. If the manufacturer doesn't provide it then most shops find it at the brake pedal. Autowbrake gets it at the trailer from the stop light signal along with the power, etc from the umbilical. A no surgery solution for sure, though I wouldn't call it necessary. Cost wise it is probably a wash considering the labor cost to add a controller in the tow. I would prefer not having to look for a fob if my trailer is swaying but that's the only way to do it if the controller is on the trailer.

P.S. For info watch the video

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Raz

T.... I would prefer not having to look for a fob if my trailer is swaying but that's the only way to do it if the controller is on the trailer.

That was one of the negatives that I noticed on a quick review.. the guy in one video even says that once the controller is set up, most people just put in the keyfob in a cup holder, etc. It would be better to mount the keyfob on easy reach of the driver, but it still is apparently only and on or off switch - no range of braking possible. And the controller only has three braking settings, low, med and high. Once its set to brake at that level, thats the only choice you will have. At least with my Prodigy P3 I can apply brakes anything from very light to full lockup (if I have a gentle enough touch).

But that might not be a big deal because IMHO, using trailer brakes to stop sway is a skill most people don't ever develop and is not all the effective unless you have practiced it. It requires a very quick response from the driver while he is busy dealing with other things such as perhaps accident avoidance, speed control, etc. And it requires just the right about of braking. Too little is not effective and too much can cause a loss of driving control. Again, only IMHO, most of us are far better off trying to deal with sway letting up on the gas pedal and keeping both hands on the wheel rather than trying to using one hand to apply just the right amount of trailer brakes. There are of course people who have this skill so lets not over-respond.

[Alex Adams]

Originally Posted by gordon2

It would be better to mount the keyfob on easy reach of the driver, but it still is apparently only and on or off switch - no range of braking possible.

Apparently, according to their FAQ, the fob can be used to apply variable braking:


Q: What does the center button on the key fob remote do?

A: The center button is to test (apply braking of trailer brakes. Brakes power increases the longer you hold the button.) and also utilize if you are experiencing trailer sway (see manual)

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Alex Adams

Apparently, according to their FAQ, the fob can be used to apply variable braking:


Q: What does the center button on the key fob remote do?

A: The center button is to test (apply braking of trailer brakes. Brakes power increases the longer you hold the button.) and also utilize if you are experiencing trailer sway (see manual)

I didn't see that.. looks like I stand corrected. Still not sure that will be an effective technique in practice however. It will be interesting to see real world experience with this device, esp since it has one large advantage... anyone with an an appropriate hitch could tow a trailer with this brake controller, without the need to install one in the tug. Just hitch up, grab the keyfob, and go.

[Alex Adams]

I'm really very interested to see how this works out since I have one of those Subaru's that don't have any plug and play wiring for a brake controller. I will need brakes on my trailer since I tow through NY State and any travel trailer over 1,000 lbs are required to have brakes. I've already done one "illegal" trip without realizing it.

[David Tilston]

Is there any reason that the brake light could not be used for any brake controller? I realize that is another wire running from the back to the front, but hey, if the brake pedal is a CAN Bus network device, at least the light bulb is not. If, as rumored, The brake controller activates the brake light when it is manually activated, then I would be tempted tap into both brake lights. This would still be a problem if the brake and signal lights were combined. And if they are not, then a trailer light adapter is still going to be required.

[Alex Adams]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

Is there any reason that the brake light could not be used for any brake controller? I realize that is another wire running from the back to the front, but hey, if the brake pedal is a CAN Bus network device, at least the light bulb is not. If, as rumored, The brake controller activates the brake light when it is manually activated, then I would be tempted tap into both brake lights. This would still be a problem if the brake and signal lights were combined. And if they are not, then a trailer light adapter is still going to be required.

The problem with that is on newer cars the computer can run a check to see if a bulb is burned out or if the circuit has a problem. Some members here have noted that the circuit deactivates when they tie the controller into the brake lights since the computer thinks there is a problem with the circuit.