Its Back - J2807 New Common towing Standard - Fiberglass RV


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Old 12-19-2014, 11:57 AM   #1
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Its Back - J2807 New Common towing Standard

Glad to see the SAE-J2807 Standard for Tow Ratings is back on track!

Although this link/picture is a few years old now its a good visual as to what the test looks like.

Not surprised as Toyota did put the pressure on the big guys by being the only auto maker to advertise using it on all their 2014 models (trucks and SUV's).

Looks like in addition to Toyota, GM, Ford, Dodge will be using it on 2015 models and Nissan has said they will use it when they release updated models. With all of them using the new standard, its doubtful that any of the other auto makers will be able to get away with not using it in the very near feature. Can not seem to find anything official from Honda or Subaru as to whether or not they will be using it on their SUV's/cross overs or not when I googled the topic.

Nope the test is not perfect but its a start. Nice to know the auto makers are using the same method to determine their tow ratings. It might also help to ending the speculations here over the actual reasons behind auto manufacture set tow ratings.
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Old 12-19-2014, 02:46 PM   #2
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Glad to see the SAE-J2807 Standard for Tow Ratings is back on track!

Nope the test is not perfect but its a start.
I agree.

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Originally Posted by Carol H View Post
Nice to know the auto makers are using the same method to determine their tow ratings. It might also help to ending the speculations here over the actual reasons behind auto manufacture set tow ratings.
Generally speaking it's all about pick ups.

The tests have been published for years. It's good to know our car and mini can pass all the tests with ease.

The SAE folks want to see a 0 to 60MPH acceleration test in 30 to 40 secs depending on how the vehicle was equipped. That is, towing at 100% of the tow rating.

It is ironic our 150HP Mini Van could tow our 23' from 0 to 60 MPH in the 30 sec spec and our V6 G35 sedan can do it in less than 20 sec. So much for the tow rating on vehicles other than trucks.
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:27 PM   #3
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Regulations usually are written by the regulated, designed to help the regulated, tp preserve the status quo for them and excluding others.
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Old 12-19-2014, 04:44 PM   #4
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I used to see ads bragging how certain manufacturers trucks could pull 10,000 lbs. Now they pull 30,000 lbs. What changed? Raz
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Old 12-19-2014, 05:14 PM   #5
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P. Raz: I think they based it on "Truth first if possible" to stay ahead of the compentation then just lie about it if the proof wasn' t in the pudding.
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Old 12-19-2014, 08:23 PM   #6
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One concern is that this will lead to even bigger light trucks, which are already stupid big.
As for towing a 13ft fiberglass trailer... the standard is mostly irrelevant.
I'd like to see the comeback of small trucks and capable small SUVs.

To start a tangent... Rust has made a comeback not seen since the late sixties, probably due to the liquid deicer now being poured on the streets, so a lot of fairly new tow vehicles will be replaced sooner than expected which could speed up the implementation of whatever new standard is adopted.
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Old 12-19-2014, 09:47 PM   #7
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Generally speaking it's all about pick ups.

The tests have been published for years. It's good to know our car and mini can pass all the tests with ease.

The SAE folks want to see a 0 to 60MPH acceleration test in 30 to 40 secs depending on how the vehicle was equipped. That is, towing at 100% of the tow rating.

It is ironic our 150HP Mini Van could tow our 23' from 0 to 60 MPH in the 30 sec spec and our V6 G35 sedan can do it in less than 20 sec. So much for the tow rating on vehicles other than trucks.
Although originally only intended for use for Light trucks - some of the manufactures have indicated they will be using it on their Heavy duty class trucks as well.

Toyota BTW in 2014 models used it on all their vehicles with tow ratings
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Old 12-20-2014, 07:22 AM   #8
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For must of us on this forum who are towing very light to medium sized loads we need accurate specs and testing which would make up good numbers. The folks at SAE have not addressed this level of TV which is unfortunate.

Too often we see many on this and other forums spending their hard earned cash updating TV's. They expect more (based on vehicle size, weight, ratings, numbers, etc and end up being disappointed with towing performance, in one way or another.
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Old 12-20-2014, 07:31 AM   #9
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A couple of years back, was told I needed a F250 with dual rear wheels and a V8 to pull our boler trailer. That person thought a 13' boler required the same.

This comment started after I posted a picture of our car and trailer going down the road hooked up.

Our hitch was setup by a hitch expert; stops fine, handles well, we can go up Wiarton hill stop and start, 10th St or 6th St in Owen Sound same, reasonable wind control, drive all day at 90 kph.

Have been towing since the sixties trailers from 10' to 27'

Extra stopping distance to the next vehicle makes sense, reasonable turning speeds, after all safety first; they just want to give big rating to the trucks: but a lot of us pull small very light weight trailers for us it is more about the air we push than the weight.

Yes without trailer brakes we do need longer to stop have had to deal with that but it was not a problem. Always tow or drive with safety first in mind.

Those of us that pull with smaller tow vehicles will not win any indie races on a standing start with an incline on the many hills we encounter in our travels but still works fine; like the fuel savings.

Do believe keep it legal and keep it fun.
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Old 12-20-2014, 10:00 AM   #10
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SAE... Society of Automobile Engineers...
They don't write standards on how something made, or how it's designed. They write standards on how something is tested, or values are created. Many of the "testing" standards are applied across the whole transportation industry. I think it's about time the SAE created standards for testing to determine tow ratings for any vehicle.
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Old 12-20-2014, 10:17 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC1 View Post
For must of us on this forum who are towing very light to medium sized loads we need accurate specs and testing which would make up good numbers. The folks at SAE have not addressed this level of TV which is unfortunate.

Too often we see many on this and other forums spending their hard earned cash updating TV's. They expect more (based on vehicle size, weight, ratings, numbers, etc and end up being disappointed with towing performance, in one way or another.
I don't think it is unfortunate at all, common sense, present law, and manufacturer's ratings are enough, along with SEMA and and the aftermarket.
We have enough valid information to make responsible choices for our selves, perhaps just not enough to make them for everyone else. Present DOT rules and limits are more than adequate for public safety.

I still say that the smartest and safest way for small and medium loads is to educate yourself and take responsibility for your own choices,knowing full well that no manufacturer is going to willingly take responsibility for any failure which involves so many variables.

"It's the driver's fault, no it's the tire's fault, no it's the other guy's fault, no it's the tow vehicle's fault, no it's trailer's fault, no it's the state's fault...no. it's GOD'S fault! ""ANYBODY'S FAULT BUT MINE!!""
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Old 12-20-2014, 11:31 AM   #12
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A couple of years back, was told I needed a F250 with dual rear wheels and a V8 to pull our boler trailer. That person thought a 13' boler required the same.
Yup, know all about it Borden. About 15 years ago we headed down into Up State New York. Thinking it was Watkins Glen State Park. We were towing a 2,000 pop up with our 3,500 lb tow rated Nissan Mini Van. Got there late at night and got some sleep.

Woke up in the morning and looked around. Lots on different size small to mid size trailers and 85% of them were being pulled by 250 series pick ups. I really think it is a was a way of thinking/mindset, whatever, but it just seemed "different". Also note back then those 250's were fairly rough riding vehicles. Not something my butt would want to be in for a long vacation.

We were kinda ignored by the other campers. Not sure it was our choice of TV or just a not so friendly group. Anyway we ran across many, many friendly folks south of the border all of the other times we ventured that way.
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Old 12-20-2014, 11:39 AM   #13
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I suspect A 250 Dulley (Its a Macho Thing)
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Old 12-20-2014, 11:50 AM   #14
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I still say that the smartest and safest way for small and medium loads is to educate yourself and take responsibility for your own choices,knowing full well that no manufacturer is going to willingly take responsibility for any failure which involves so many variables.
So true and many folks see it that way. A very well know towing specialist once wrote that....." because of the so many variables connected with the rig and set up that if he was a vehicle manufacturer, he would not apply a tow rating to any vehicle."

Makes a lot of sense. Leave the towing and rig set up to folks who are in the business of doing so.

Just another way of looking at it.
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Old 12-20-2014, 12:48 PM   #15
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For must of us on this forum who are towing very light to medium sized loads we need accurate specs and testing which would make up good numbers. The folks at SAE have not addressed this level of TV which is unfortunate.

.
According to the Standards SAE International website the SAE J2807 it was in fact written for all vehicles up to 13,000 GVWR not just trucks

" This document establishes minimum performance criteria at GCWR and calculation methodology to determine tow-vehicle TWR for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles and trucks. This includes all vehicles up to 13 000 lb GVWR."

So it seems they did take into consideration the lighter passenger cars/SUV's and vans that many here tow are light fiberglass trailers with and explains why Toyota used it on all the vehicles in their 2014 model year line up that they have put a tow rating on.

As Floyd says there is a lot of factors that go into making a good tow vehicle and one needs to educate themselves in order to make a decision as to what works for you.

This is simple just one more tool that a consumer can use to help them decide if they need a Dual axle Hemi truck or a Toyota Corolla in order to get a safe/comfortable tow with a 17' Boler or if perhaps the answer is neither.

The consumer now knows that as far as the testing goes they are comparing apples to apples not Corporate lawyer to lawyer as some here have suggested in the past as to how/who sets tow ratings.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:27 PM   #16
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As Floyd says there is a lot of factors that go into making a good tow vehicle and one needs to educate themselves in order to make a decision as to what works for you.
No doubt Floyd and I are on the same page when it comes to his statement above.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:53 PM   #17
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" This document establishes minimum performance criteria at GCWR and calculation methodology to determine tow-vehicle TWR for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles and trucks. This includes all vehicles up to 13 000 lb GVWR."

So it seems they did take into consideration the lighter passenger cars/SUV's and vans that many here tow are light fiberglass trailers with and explains why Toyota used it on all the vehicles in their 2014 model year line up that they have put a tow rating on.

The consumer now knows that as far as the testing goes they are comparing apples to apples not Corporate lawyer to lawyer as some here have suggested in the past as to how/who sets tow ratings.
This is news to many of us as you have shown. They will be testing all vehicles. All I can say is Wow. That will be a lot of man hours of work for the auto companies.

It really makes one wonder how this will all come about. The variables involved with the whole towing deal. Hummmmm.

I'm thinking the tow ratings on many smaller vehicle, mini vans, etc are dramaticly going to go up now that the lawyers and marketers are being squeezed out of the process. These vehicles will be more in line with the off shore ratings or may be even higher with the use of the WDH.
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Old 12-20-2014, 04:04 PM   #18
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The consumer now knows that as far as the testing goes they are comparing apples to apples not Corporate lawyer to lawyer as some here have suggested in the past as to how/who sets tow ratings.
The question is... what sort of apples are they selling?... I like to make my own choices for my own "applecations".

This could be the first time we would be required to be "PC" when choosing "Apples"!



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Old 12-20-2014, 05:19 PM   #19
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This is news to many of us as you have shown. They will be testing all vehicles. All I can say is Wow. That will be a lot of man hours of work for the auto companies.

It really makes one wonder how this will all come about. The variables involved with the whole towing deal. Hummmmm.

I'm thinking the tow ratings on many smaller vehicle, mini vans, etc are dramaticly going to go up now that the lawyers and marketers are being squeezed out of the process. These vehicles will be more in line with the off shore ratings or may be even higher with the use of the WDH.
Actually some of them went down & some up on the 2013 model year (as well as the years prior) from various manufactures - cars and trucks - and lots of people yelled here about the ones that went down as it was not fully understanding the probable reasons behind it. Ford has acknowledged that the tow ratings on the all newly redesigned 2013 Ford Escape for example were in fact established using the SE J2807.

The reason why they have all been testing for a number of years now is very simple. The auto makers had all agreed the new towing standard would be in place for their 2013 model year offerings. So no surprise they all started running those tests in the years prior thus the down grading of some tow ratings and the up grading of others that took place in 2013 & in some cases the years prior. It was also no surprise that a number of the auto makers also introduced redesigned vehicles in 2013 (the Ford Escape being one) - some suggest that was to avoid having to down grade their tow ratings if they had stuck to their old vehicle design as some suggest Subaru had to do on their 2013 Forester based on the SE testing - the 2013 model year was based on the same design they had been using since 2009.

It was only when one of the BIG 3 decided at the last minute that they where going to pull out of the deal that the other 2 big 3 members decided to pull out as well, so the other manufactures who had signed onto the deal also bailed out .... all except Toyota. Toyota on the other hand decided to carry on as planned and actually advertised on their 2013 and 2014 models they were using the new towing standards. Funny enough the popular RAV4 got a big new redesign in 2013 as well ;-)

Here is an interesting article from earlier last year that more or less explains the mess that took place in regards to why those who had agreed to implement in 2013 pulled out of the deal:
Automotive News - Pickup truck towing Standard isn't standard.
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Old 12-21-2014, 04:55 PM   #20
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Actually, Toyota started using the J2807 standard back in 2011 for their Trucks.
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