Law governing tow capacity?

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by dylanear

I really just need to get a trailer on the back of this car and see how it feels as a first step. If I'm not comfortable towing it, I don't care if it's legal, I'm not going to tow it. After a success with that I can worry about the letter of the law and other issues.

Smart, very smart

[mcbrew]

Good line of thinking. I am curious as to what car you plan on towing with. If you mentioned it, I missed it. I used to tow with a Scion xD, which is a subcompact car which shares components with both the Toyota Yaris and the Corolla. I found that it towed the Scamp rather well. The xD was not rated to tow ANYTHING in the US, but is rated to tow approximately 1,600 pounds in other countries. I recently traded the xD in for a Subaru Outback, which is rated to tow 2,700 pounds in the US, and up to 4,000 pounds in other countries. I have only towed my utility trailer with the Outback so far, but I am sure it will be a wonderful TV for the Scamp. More HP and torque than the xD, full time all wheel drive, and a continuously variable transmission. It is nice that the manufacturer approves it for towing, but that is certainly not a prerequisite in my opinion. I have towed trailers with ever car I have owned since I was 16. I have never encountered a problem while towing (touch wood).

The best advice I can give is to make sure your car and trailer are in good condition, make sure you understand the basic physics involved, and drive within safe limits. Speed is the biggest factor, and seems to play a prominent role in most serious trailer accidents. In my younger years, I did not pay much attention to tongue weight, other than what my father taught me, which is that there should be weight on the hitch. Here in the US, most people recommend 10-15% of the trailer weight should be on the tongue. In other countries, the standard can be as low as 4%. However, in the US, we tend to drive faster when towing than people do in those other countries. For this reason, drive slower while towing.

Know the limits of your tires, and the recommended tire pressure for the weight you plan to put on them. It is not necessarily better to use a higher pressure... But generally, you want a higher pressure for a higher load. For trailer tires, you can usually find a chart with recommended pressures depending on the weight. Too little pressure and the tires will run hot (leading to premature failure). Too much pressure and they will bounce, which is harder on the suspension, trailer, trailer frame, trailer contents, coupler, hitch, and tow vehicle.

I hope this helps.

[Borden]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Good line of thinking. I am curious as to what car you plan on towing with. If you mentioned it, I missed it. I used to tow with a Scion xD, which is a subcompact car which shares components with both the Toyota Yaris and the Corolla. I found that it towed the Scamp rather well. The xD was not rated to tow ANYTHING in the US, but is rated to tow approximately 1,600 pounds in other countries. I recently traded the xD in for a Subaru Outback, which is rated to tow 2,700 pounds in the US, and up to 4,000 pounds in other countries. I have only towed my utility trailer with the Outback so far, but I am sure it will be a wonderful TV for the Scamp. More HP and torque than the xD, full time all wheel drive, and a continuously variable transmission. It is nice that the manufacturer approves it for towing, but that is certainly not a prerequisite in my opinion. I have towed trailers with ever car I have owned since I was 16. I have never encountered a problem while towing (touch wood).

The best advice I can give is to make sure your car and trailer are in good condition, make sure you understand the basic physics involved, and drive within safe limits. Speed is the biggest factor, and seems to play a prominent role in most serious trailer accidents. In my younger years, I did not pay much attention to tongue weight, other than what my father taught me, which is that there should be weight on the hitch. Here in the US, most people recommend 10-15% of the trailer weight should be on the tongue. In other countries, the standard can be as low as 4%. However, in the US, we tend to drive faster when towing than people do in those other countries. For this reason, drive slower while towing.

Know the limits of your tires, and the recommended tire pressure for the weight you plan to put on them. It is not necessarily better to use a higher pressure... But generally, you want a higher pressure for a higher load. For trailer tires, you can usually find a chart with recommended pressures depending on the weight. Too little pressure and the tires will run hot (leading to premature failure). Too much pressure and they will bounce, which is harder on the suspension, trailer, trailer frame, trailer contents, coupler, hitch, and tow vehicle.

I hope this helps.

So well said mcbrew Corolla is also a sub compact like the Scoin xD but pulls well. Plus has been the mileage we get with the trailer.

We even pulled with an Echo sedan but best not over 1000 lbs due to Echo size. Match the trailer to the car or car to the trailer and have fun.

Do agree to much tire pressure is not good the max on our tires is 50 lbs but the recommended pressure for our weight is only 25 to 30 lbs.

The recommended tongue weight for our car is only 8% best guess is the taller the TV the higher the tongue weight needed; this would explain why Subaru says 8%?

[dylanear]

Thanks for the afirmation Donna.

McBrew, Borden, careful what you say, you might encourage me!

Hmmm,,,,,, I haven't mentioned the tow vehicle,,,,,

Funny that!

But seriously, as I mentioned in another topic where that was revealed, I hate to say it, because people who don't know them, haven't towed with them or usually towed with any small car or towed a small egg will just scoff and dismiss the possibility outright. Granted I've never towed anything with anything that I can recall in my 24 years of driving!

So I proudly say, I want to tow with a,,, Miata!

A low miles '05 that's got a lot of performance modifications, but many of those I think will aid in towing. Gobs of power from a turbo motor, unaffected by altitude for the high country, 200+ horsepower depending on how it's tuned. It's got a big brake upgrade, huge rotors compared to stock and big alloy Wilwood calipers in front. Heavy springs so the car will be more stable and predicable with the forces on the hitch, less likely to bottom out the rear suspension. I can adjust the ride height, now it's too low, but I can raise it for more suspension travel and ground clearance, I'll tell my plans to the alignment guy, now I have a performance alignment on the car. Hefty frame rail braces with chassis cross bracing, which I might upgrade to an even better cross brace. The solid hitch package bolts onto the spots on the frame rails that the car is tied down on when shipping from the factory in Japan. Looks solid, I started the install this afternoon. Should be able to tow something tomorrow.

It's probably about the weight of a Yaris, Less than a modern Corolla by a few hundred lbs I guess. Mine was weighed at 2420ish lbs with half a tank of gas at the last alignment as I recall. Max weight rating is just shy of 3000lbs. So about 550lbs to spare lets say, for me (160), the weight on the hitch (180?) and gear (210). I hope to find a 13' that's about 1000lbs dry and empty, maybe 1300lbs equipped to hit the road with barely filled tanks (just a few lbs of propane, a few gallons of water, mostly empty grey water tank, etc). Add in another 200lbs of my stuff for a towed weight of 1500lbs. That's 50% of the tow vehicle weight. A bit more should be safely doable if things go over a tad. Trailer brakes are for sure. Wouldn't hit the open road without 'em. An anti sway mechanism and chains on the hitch. I'll wire in the brake controller and lights, I have the full wiring diagrams for the car. McBrew, what you say about speed rings true, I'll be pulling this load in very mellow style. I'm prone to long driving days, but I know not to try it with this kind of rig. No night towing or in bad weather, at least until I have a few thousand miles towing under my belt. I'll definitely try towing some loads, hopefully of varying weights and sizes, before buying anything. Get some idea and feel of the forces at work in this equalization directly where it may matter most, the seat of my pants. The car is short, 90" wheelbase, so that is a strike against it in towing stability. Got to keep it slow. Very slow if winds are an issue and be prepared to sit it out if weather is not cooperating. I am concerned about trucks pushing the trailer around when passing etc. The Miata is so small it's not affected much at all by wind or trucks, don't want to get out of sync if the trailer pushes hard one way or the other. Oh, and fitting mirrors that see around a egg onto the Miata may require some wacky contraption. Suggestions welcome! Suggestions that don't include drilling holes in the body!

If it doesn't feel right, things just get too complex, or I find that I'm pushing my luck I just won't do it. Perhaps just get some small trailer to haul some gear on longer trips instead.

[GeorgeR]

We just drove from Barcelona to Cracow and somewhere in France we saw a newer Miata pulling a small, likely less than 13’, classy, absolutely beautiful FG trailer on French plates. So, someone is using Miata to pull a trailer.

George.

[mcbrew]

Nice! My brother (having an early midlife crisis) was just looking at a new Miata last week. He decided he was too tall for it, and opted for a Huyndai Genesis coupe instead. He effectively tripled
The horsepower from his previous Honda Fit!

One thing in your favor is the relative short distance from the rear wheels to the pivot point (hitch ball). This helps to minimize the lever effect of the trailer when it gets pushed by wind or trucks. I was worried about the same thing when towing with the xD, but it turned out never to be a problem.

[Borden]

Your car may not have a GCWR rating but you need to consider the GVWR rating as it is law. Stronger rear springs will not fix the tongue problems as you still have a lever lifting the front end. Only a wd can help and our class III hitch is not just bolted to the back; see hitch picture in show us your hitch. http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...tch-48358.html

We pulled with the longer version of the Echo 4 door sedan and class I around your size and customer swaybar plate on drawbar had more clearance under it and we had to consider wind. You will need brakes, transaxle cooler, and to consider the car cargo load limit this includes hitch weight, wd system or draw bar, car loaded cargo, passengers and tongue weight to be legal. Do not know if your extra modifications will count? Pulling power you have in spades.

We pulled a small trailer: we have a neighbour with a small car and 10' boler around the corner from me; very cute and very light. Trailer size will matter if you do this go to experts to make sure you are safe. I can post the rules from MTO for my area off the web but only you can meet the needs of your proposed TV in your area. I do not know your cars capability's. They do make trailers even a motorcycle can pull, see them around.

Can not advise you as to what you would need just drive safe.
Have fun.

[Borden]

see bottom and unit
Can not advise anyone as I am not an expert, can only say read and be informed before you decide.
Safety must always come first.

[Borden]

Can not advise as to how you go, it is up to you just read and be informed

[dylanear]

Originally Posted by Borden

Your car may not have a GCWR rating but you need to consider the GVWR rating as it is law. Stronger rear springs will not fix the tongue problems as you still have a lever lifting the front end. Only a wd can help and our class III hitch is not just bolted to the back; see hitch picture in show us your hitch. http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...tch-48358.html
Have fun.

The max weight of just under 3000lbs I mentioned before is the GVWR (from the door sticker), No, I won't be exceeding that all loaded up with the trailer weight on the hitch.

WD? Not clued in on all the lingo yet. Not sure if/how it's going to fit on my hitch, but I do plan on installing one of those sway dampeners like you posted.

And yes, indeed there is almost no distance between the rear wheels and the hitch, like 2 feet. Still going to be shifting the weight bias to the rear quite a bit under braking. Most Miatas are very close to 50/50, but I do have a nose heavy Miata, so that may help keep weight on the front wheels while braking to some degree. I think I had 200 or so more lbs on the front wheels at the last alignment (they weighed each corner while adjusting the height to even it out with slight height adjustments, "corner weighting".)

[cpaharley2008]

Please let us know here on the forum when and where you are towing so as we can avoid the area, it is a disaster waiting to happen. And when you get done, let us know so we can all breath easier. Rent a truck and be safe.

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Please let us know here on the forum when and where you are towing so as we can avoid the area, it is a disaster waiting to happen. And when you get done, let us know so we can all breath easier. Rent a truck and be safe.

It is more than a small amount of overkill to say that a truck is needed to tow a 13 foot FGRV. The original ones were designed to be towed by air-cooled VWs. Why is it that Europeans have this figured out, and Americans seem to be so ignorant of the capabilities of smaller cars? In the UK, a Honda Fit (aka Jazz) is rated to tow 2,200 pounds, and people do it without killing other folks left and right.

Last time I was in Prague, I estimated that one out of four cars had a trailer hitch. That's a tow ball, not a receiver that might only be used for a bike rack. Very few of these cars are larger than what we call "compact", and most of them have 1.5 liter or smaller engines.

[dylanear]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

It is more than a small amount of overkill to say that a truck is needed to tow a 13 foot FGRV. The original ones were designed to be towed by air-cooled VWs. Why is it that Europeans have this figured out, and Americans seem to be so ignorant of the capabilities of smaller cars? In the UK, a Honda Fit (aka Jazz) is rated to tow 2,200 pounds, and people do it without killing other folks left and right.

Last time I was in Prague, I estimated that one out of four cars had a trailer hitch. That's a tow ball, not a receiver that might only be used for a bike rack. Very few of these cars are larger than what we call "compact", and most of them have 1.5 liter or smaller engines.

Forgive me for finding this debate very, very entertaining.

It's true, Americans have a warped sense of the size of vehicles in general compared to the rest of the world. The average tow vehicle here is a massive 6000lb truck. In New Zealand and Australia the average tow vehicle was a Subaru or the ubiquitous "ute" (truck bed on a mid size car chassis, like the old Chevy El Camino, but more mid sized). Granted the average trailer is a lot smaller in down under. Very few giant, slide out monsters behind giant dually trucks.

[dylanear]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Please let us know here on the forum when and where you are towing so as we can avoid the area, it is a disaster waiting to happen. And when you get done, let us know so we can all breath easier. Rent a truck and be safe.

Keep off the 5 southbound south of San Fran and the 40 eastbound outa' So Cal the first week of October! It's going to be like Mad Max! Explosions! Vehicles careening out of control in all directions! Chaos! Anarchy!

I value my life and this car dearly. If I'm not in very good control of a trailer, I'm not going to tow it. But I'm not going to take the advice of people who have never tried towing with this type setup as gospel without further investigation. I'm not ignoring those voices, but rather listening to all opinions and trying to form my own. Extra credence to voices who have towed 13' eggs with small cars.

[honda03842]

I suspect a 13 foot appropriately loaded trailer with brakes could be towed by almost anything, particularly if one is sensible. We have at least one person towing a 17 foot trailer with a 2800 pound car and only 130 HP.

At the PEI rally a 13 foot Boler was being towed by a 1951 Mercury with 112 HP that weighed 3200 pounds. The person has been towing the Boler for decades.

I think we sometimes forget how little horsepower cars of other generations had, forget how bad brakes used to be and how poor suspensions were.

Of course one can overload a 13, but again trailer sanity must prevail.

No matter how big your tow vehicle, the sanity of the driver is critical. On the Jersey Turnpike we had a huge Ford truck towing a dual axle horse trailer pass us on the right in the break down lane swerving in front of us while entering the highway.

It sounds like you're going to do a trial run. Please let us know the outcome.

[honda03842]

This thread is a reason why it would be valuable to list tow vehicle with trailer weights, in our trailer weight section. It would provide more perspective.

[dylanear]

Originally Posted by honda03842

This thread is a reason why it would be valuable to list tow vehicle with trailer weights, in our trailer weight section. It would provide more perspective.

That would be useful!