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01-25-2017, 10:53 PM
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#1
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Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 32
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lowering tongue weight on Casita 17'
we're interested in a 17' Casita but the listed tongue weight is 15# over our vehicle's max. My thought is whether removing one propane bottle would lower the tongue weight below 350#. Or getting a smaller single tank to replace both of the big tanks. Anyone made that change or have an opinion on it? Not worried about carrying enough propane, we prefer cooking outside and electric heat anyway.
Daniel
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01-25-2017, 11:47 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Name: Dave
Trailer: Casita SD17 2006 "Missing Link"
California
Posts: 3,738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E
we're interested in a 17' Casita but the listed tongue weight is 15# over our vehicle's max. My thought is whether removing one propane bottle would lower the tongue weight below 350#. Or getting a smaller single tank to replace both of the big tanks. Anyone made that change or have an opinion on it? Not worried about carrying enough propane, we prefer cooking outside and electric heat anyway. Daniel
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Removing a tank would lighten up the TW. My TW with two tanks is 365#. I also travel with the 25 gal water tank full and load the heavy stuff over the axle with nothing much more than clothes in the front closet. As far as your tugs max rating, that's a subject that can and does go sideways . IMHO, it's not going to break at 351#s. Good luck to you.
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01-26-2017, 07:13 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,912
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From the Trailer Weights in the Real World thread (post #297 links to a spreadsheet), average total weight of a Casita 17 Deluxe is 3275 pounds with and average tongue weight of 415 pounds.
Removing a tank helps by about 35 pounds. Filling the water tank behind the axle helps, but adds to the total weight.
Three addition considerations... First, some vehicles sag quite a bit under a full tongue load. That means air bags or a weight distributing hitch might be needed to keep your headlights pointed at the road. Second, with a full tongue load, you may have little rear axle capacity left for cargo or extra passengers in the vehicle. Third, if your vehicle is FWD you may experience reduced traction on slippery grades in campgrounds or on gravel back roads.
Tow ratings also assume a fairly modest frontal area, only 30 sq. ft. for a 3500 pound rating, under the new SAE J2807 towing standards. With a higher profile travel trailer, I'd want to leave additional margin between the loaded weight of the trailer and the rating of the vehicle.
If all your towing will be at moderate speeds at lower elevations on fairly flat terrain, that's one thing. If your plans include high-demand towing conditions- steep grades, high elevations, extreme temperatures, and/or headwinds- you may be disappointed. I own a Honda Pilot 2WD, rated 3500/350, and I would not try to tow a Casita 17 with it. That's based on real-world experience towing an 1800 pound 13' Scamp in some of those high-demand conditions.
Here're a few charts as food for thought (click to enlarge). The first is an excerpt from my owner's manual showing how the tow rating and tongue weight rating diminish as you add additional passengers or equivalent cargo to the vehicle. The second is Casita 17 data from the real-world weight database. The third lists the frontal area specs from the SAE J2807 towing standards now used by many manufacturers.
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01-26-2017, 07:45 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Name: bob
Trailer: 1996 Casita 17 Spirit Deluxe; 1946 Modernistic teardrop
New York
Posts: 5,413
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We have a Casita SD 17 and tow with a 2012 Ram 1500. I removed the bathroom door because of interference with the dinette seating ( it was quite heavy) and downsized to one 7lb propane tank. Water heater is electric, don't cook inside, and haven't used the furnace so actually could completely eliminate propane. Never had the trailer weighed so don't know tongue weight.
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01-26-2017, 09:08 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Name: Steve
Trailer: 2018, 21ft escape— 2019 Ram 1500 Laramie
NW Wisconsin
Posts: 4,500
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Our 2013 17' SD Casita weighs between 3300 to 3400 lbs and has a tongue weight between 420 to 430 lbs when loaded for travel. Take from this what you will !
We left / use our trailer as designed and equipped including (propane , furnace , cook top , bathroom door , bathroom , front closet etc. )
If I wanted to tow with a small vehicle ( 3500 lb tow rating) , I would have bought a 13 ft.Scamp or Casita.
Buying / paying for a fully equipped / optioned trailer and then removing / not using the features you just paid for so you can tow it with a marginal vehicle defies logic IMHO.
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01-26-2017, 10:18 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
Name: Greg
Trailer: 2008 Casita 17' SD
Washington
Posts: 1,993
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We don't use much propane. In fact, we don't use it at all. We only keep it available for emergencies because we always camp where there are hook-ups, or at the very least 120 volt shore power. To carry the added weight of two of those large 5 gallon propane tanks everywhere for no reason is not what suits our needs. We replaced them with two 2.5 gallon ones, and even to this date, they've never been used, but it did reduce the front end load a bit.
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01-26-2017, 10:39 AM
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#7
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Junior Member
Name: James
Trailer: in the market
Michigan
Posts: 14
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Check out fiberglass propane tanks half the pounds
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01-26-2017, 11:05 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
Name: Greg
Trailer: 2008 Casita 17' SD
Washington
Posts: 1,993
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Yes, and I also like them. In fact, I take a composite 5 Gallon propane tank with me, (carried in the pickup bed,) just to set up with my Camp Chef two-burner outdoor stove, which is generally the extent of my propane usage. To mount the composite tanks would require modification to the hold-down brackets and base rings in order to install them in place of the steel tanks. Not an insurmountable task, but it isn't a "plug and play" drop-in. It would require reconfiguring the entire tank mounting structure, as opposed to just shortening the all-thread rod. But if I ever reconfigured my propane tank set-up I would probably scrap the entire existing double tank mount and build a new single tank set-up from scratch that would hold one 5 Gallon composite tank. Maybe a Spring project...
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01-26-2017, 11:36 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
Name: Steve
Trailer: Scamp 13
California
Posts: 1,890
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You can re-balance the trailer all you want but you can't fudge the actual minimum tongue weight much as compared against the total weight of the trailer. If you are marginal with the allowed capacities then it is imperative that you weigh your actual weight changes and don't allow them to compromise your safety. Starting with a plan with leaving holding tanks empty to balance weights can get really bad if you ever have to drive with full tanks.
When a trailer takes control of the tug its almost always bad and very frightening at the least.
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01-26-2017, 11:49 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Name: bob
Trailer: 1996 Casita 17 Spirit Deluxe; 1946 Modernistic teardrop
New York
Posts: 5,413
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[QUOTE=steve dunham;
Buying / paying for a fully equipped / optioned trailer and then removing / not using the features you just paid for so you can tow it with a marginal vehicle defies logic IMHO.[/QUOTE]
Bought ours used so had no choice of options. Made modifications to suit our preferences. Don't feel that our truck is a "marginal vehicle".
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01-26-2017, 12:10 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,912
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Bob, I don't think anyone would consider a RAM 5.7L Hemi marginal! I believe Steve D. was referring to the OP's vehicle with a reported tongue weight rating of 350 pounds and, presumably, a 3500 pound tow rating. And I'd have to agree: marginal.
I don't think there would likely be a stability issue with reducing the tongue weight down to 350 pounds, since this trailer tends to be quite tongue heavy (ranging from 9.1% to 19.9% in the data and averaging almost 13%). The best solutions involve reducing weight at the front, not adding counterweight in the back, because the latter drives up total weight.
However you slice and dice it, it's going to be marginal for a 3500/350 rated tug, and no excess capacity to carry cargo in the vehicle. But I'm repeating myself now...
Greg, I was also thinking of replacing my single 5 gal. LP tank with two 2.5 gal. tanks: one plumbed to power the trailer and one removable to power the outside kitchen. I already have one, but it's the taller, skinny style. Not sure how to mount... Have to worry about security, too- those little tanks are expensive!
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01-26-2017, 01:02 PM
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#12
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Member
Name: Arnold
Trailer: 2015 Casita 17' Spirit Deluxe
California
Posts: 89
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We bought a fiber glass tank at West Marine. Can see how much is in the tank and it is much lighter
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01-26-2017, 01:28 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Name: Michael
Trailer: Trail Cruiser
Alberta
Posts: 825
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Sounds like you are towing close to your max capacity. Weight distribution is critical to stability. I can tow my unit with my little Ford Ranger but usually don't. My 1/2 ton GMC does much better. If I go into the mountains I always use my 3/4 diesel. Towing at max capacity is hard on the tow vehicle and can be a safety hazard. Don't over do it.
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01-26-2017, 02:10 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Name: Steve
Trailer: 2018, 21ft escape— 2019 Ram 1500 Laramie
NW Wisconsin
Posts: 4,500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mary and bob
Bought ours used so had no choice of options. Made modifications to suit our preferences. Don't feel that our truck is a "marginal vehicle".
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Bob , I was not referencing your Ram 1500 V8
I was referring to vehicles with a 3500 lb tow limit and a 350 lb tongue weight limit .
A Casita 17 ft DLX is right at or over the limits for a 3500 lb rated vehicle. You can modify or shift loads to Hell freezes over and a small 3500 lb rated vehicle will stIll be marginal towing a 17" Casita.
I own a 17 ft Casita and a Ram 1500 V8 .
I have stated many times that I find my 2014 Ram 1500 as an adequate at best tow vehicle for my trailer..
I still don't understand why one would buy a trailer with a propane cook top , water heater , refrigerator and furnace and then remove the propane tanks and render these appliances useless.
As I have stated on many occasions , one need to buy a trailer that matches up with your tow vehicle.
The tongue weight listed for a 17 ft Casita is 365 lbs with EMPTY propane tanks. My Casita had a tongue weight over 365 lbs when we left the factory with the options we ordered.
The gray and black water tanks are forward of the axle so any water in the tanks add tongue weight . If you look at "Trailer Weights in the Real World" the average tongue weight of a 17 ft Casita is approx 427 lbs with some well over 500 lbs
A vehicle with a tongue weight limit of 350 lbs is marginal and that's being extremely kind and overly optimistic.
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01-26-2017, 04:00 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
Name: Michael
Trailer: Trail Cruiser
Alberta
Posts: 825
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I would have to agree with Steve. The trailer and tow vehicle must be compatible to be safe. If it isn't safe, it shouldn't be used. Stripping a trailer of its amenities to reduce its weight sacrifices the features for which the trailer was purchased and does little if anything in the interests of safety. Before I retired I investigated many incidents, some of them fatalities. The two main causes for incidents involving trailers were incompatibility between the trailer and tow vehicle and lack of driver skill. I suspect that the first was often the result of the second.
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01-26-2017, 05:08 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Name: Shelby
Trailer: Casita SD
Tennessee
Posts: 1,087
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why not a 16?
Is there a feature unique to the 17' that you consider essential? A 16' would resolve your weight issues.
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01-26-2017, 07:13 PM
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#17
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Junior Member
Name: Alex
Trailer: Casita Spirit Deluxe
Florida
Posts: 23
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I have a receiver hitch in back of my 17 SD. Orbital machine works custom makes these. It's very convenient to carry a bike rack or a hitchhaul with a few items on it and I have to be careful not to carry so much that it lightens the tongue too much.
That's a fix that would add convenience without taking away any features.
Alex
• In democracy your vote counts. In feudalism your count votes.
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01-26-2017, 10:13 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
Name: John
Trailer: Roamer 1
Smith Valley, Nevada
Posts: 2,879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Segal
I have a receiver hitch in back of my 17 SD. Orbital machine works custom makes these. It's very convenient to carry a bike rack or a hitchhaul with a few items on it and I have to be careful not to carry so much that it lightens the tongue too much.
That's a fix that would add convenience without taking away any features.
Alex
• In democracy your vote counts. In feudalism your count votes.
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This "fix" can cause dangerous instability. Trying to lighten the tongue by hanging weight out behind the trailer is just asking for serious instability.
The attached video has been shared a number of times and tells the story. Weight should be centralized and about 10% forward, not hung out the back to correct a problem with tongue weight.
__________________
I only exaggerate enough to compensate for being taken with a grain of salt.
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01-26-2017, 10:34 PM
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#19
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Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShelbyM
Is there a feature unique to the 17' that you consider essential? A 16' would resolve your weight issues.
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Actually I'm trying to figure out what the difference between the two sizes really is, maybe just a few inches less elbow room. Other than the 16s seem to not be really popular and not often seen in the used market I was trying to be comfortable with the heft of a 17. And the comments others have made confirm my unease with being maxed out for the tug.
We don't use any propane but I doubt Casita would build one without, I see the Lil Snoozy are without propane but they're harder to find than even the 16s.
Thanks for all your comments.
Daniel
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01-26-2017, 10:50 PM
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#20
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Senior Member
Name: John
Trailer: Roamer 1
Smith Valley, Nevada
Posts: 2,879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E
we're interested in a 17' Casita but the listed tongue weight is 15# over our vehicle's max. My thought is whether removing one propane bottle would lower the tongue weight below 350#. Or getting a smaller single tank to replace both of the big tanks. Anyone made that change or have an opinion on it? Not worried about carrying enough propane, we prefer cooking outside and electric heat anyway.
Daniel
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If you are this close to the manufacturer's limit of safe vs. unsafe, a few pounds won't make a real difference. And you might put a few things in the fridge or a few things in the closet that pushes it back over the line. There is no absolute line here, as in crash or won't crash, but more, a reasonable safety margin that you are using up.
I don't like the idea of running at a point the manufacturer says is the limit for my truck, all the time, and under any driving circumstances. Whether I'm just a few pounds lighter or heavier is irrelevant. Potential handling problems or unexpected instability is the real issue.
__________________
I only exaggerate enough to compensate for being taken with a grain of salt.
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