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Old 12-18-2012, 11:05 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by GeorgeR View Post
Somehow the rest of the World has more options on their markets such as gas, CNG, LPG, diesel, why not in the US?
You can get all those options... but consumers have demonstrated that they don't want them, or are at least unwilling to pay for them:
  • gas (gasoline)
    Obviously, gasoline vehicles are widely available
  • CNG (Compressed Natural Gas)
    There are lots of conversions available, and various models from compact sedans (Honda Civic) to light trucks are factory-available in CNG
    Very few are sold, other than to natural gas distribution utilities, perhaps because the initial cost is high, range is short, and refuelling stations are nearly non-existent
  • LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas, a.k.a. propane)
    While rare to non-existent from the factory, aftermarket conversions are readily available... but pointless.
    Propane was used by most taxis, many tow trucks, and a significant number of private vehicles in the Edmonton area a quarter-century ago, because it was so cheap. Since then, prices have changed and propane is just as expensive (on cost per unit energy basis) as gasoline - even though propane is exempt from road taxes - and no one uses it any more. Perhaps the bulky tanks, inconvenient refuelling, need to keep another fuel system in place for starting in cold weather, and short range drove people away...
  • diesel
    While there is a lack of light pickup trucks currently available with diesel engines, there are diesel models of most vehicle types... and in every category, many (most in the case of everything but "one ton" pickup) buyers choose gasoline instead.

You can also buy vehicles to run any mix of gasoline and ethanol from straight gas to 85% ethanol (a.k.a E85), or a couple of vehicles to run on electricity.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:14 PM   #182
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... the diesel for my 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD, turbo 4 cyl that pulled like a v-6. But the emission standards killed it.
Several Jeeps have featured diesels over the years. Yes, emission standards changed and the VM Motori engine in the Liberty didn't survive one of those changes, but changing regulations are reality for all types of engines. Emission regulations didn't kill the other diesels - just forced them to be updated - and are not to blame for Chrysler's choice to discontinue diesel engine availability in the Liberty.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:00 AM   #183
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You can get all those options... but consumers have demonstrated that they don't want them, or are at least unwilling to pay for them
“People have demonstrated” - this is real news for me. Yes, you can get everything in the US but since when costumer decided not to by LPG, CNG, or small economical diesel vehicle. LPG is very popular in EU, costs one half of gas with 10% MPG and power loss, and there are LPG gas stations with automotive type LPG fill connectors. Please point me to a US road legal 2012 LPG conversion, car friendly LPG station, or 60 MPG small diesel or 35mpg small pickup truck in the US. Otherwise it sounds as “people say it is available”
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:47 AM   #184
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Toyota now has a pick-up competitor
Volkswagen Amarok 2.0 TDI Review | Autocar
I read that one reason VW will not bring the Amarok here is the chicken tax makes it non-competitive. It would have to be made here (North America) as would the Ranger. I have to wonder what effect that has on the Mahindra?

While rare in on-road vehicles, diesel engines are quite common on tractors. I'm not sure you can get a gasoline engine on a tractor once you get above a Home Depot lawn mower. And off road diesel is competitive in price to gasoline. That said the only thing connected to the exhaust manifold on my tractor is a muffler. Raz
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:32 AM   #185
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I read that one reason VW will not bring the Amarok here is the chicken tax makes it non-competitive.
If you wouldn't mind, I'd like an explanation of this "chicken tax." It's a complete surprise to me. I never knew that chickens had any money.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:47 AM   #186
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MB overcomes the chicken tax on their Sprinter cargo vans by disassembling and putting them back together in the US. It is additional cost but still less than the chicken tax. My passenger van will not have to go through this process.


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Old 12-19-2012, 01:00 PM   #187
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Chicken tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:16 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by GeorgeR View Post
LPG is very popular in EU, costs one half of gas with 10% MPG and power loss, and there are LPG gas stations with automotive type LPG fill connectors. Please point me to a US road legal 2012 LPG conversion, car friendly LPG station...
North America is not Europe, and LPG is not half the price of gasoline here... perhaps only because gasoline is so much cheaper here (even in Canada) than in Europe.
I don't know what a "car friendly" propane station would be - I would just pull a propane car up to the same bulk fill point where I fill the RV tank of my motorhome. All permanently mounted tanks (at least here) have the same "fast fill" fitting.

A 10% peak engine power loss is not the same as the volume increase in fuel consumption - propane falls more than 10% short of gasoline in energy content.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:17 PM   #189
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Good link here. Thanks Andrew. You have got to wonder why, after 50 years it is still in place. My understanding is that Ford makes the Transit Connect in Turkey with rear seats, brings it here and removes the seats to avoid the tax.


REPORT: Ford Transit Connect arriving in U.S. with full interiors that get stripped to comply with "Chicken Law"
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:17 PM   #190
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Well, I hope not to get anybody's hopes up, but this article seems to think that diesels will be arriving in the next few years. Unfortunately, they don't mention pickups.

The Diesels Are Finally Coming to the U.S. (If You've Got the Cash) | Autopia | Wired.com
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:22 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by rabbit View Post
http://enr.construction.com/opinions...novation.aspGo

Brief intro. to the historical origin of the "chicken tax" for those unfamiliar with the techy argot. And I always thought it was only trucks with beds installed, which would make it a "bed tax."

jack
There are a couple of extra characters on the end of that link so it doesn't work. Here's the corrected version:
Killing the ‘Chicken Tax’ on Trucks Will Promote Innovation | ENR: Engineering News Record | McGraw-Hill Construction
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:31 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by GeorgeR View Post
“People have demonstrated” - this is real news for me. Yes, you can get everything in the US but since when costumer decided not to by LPG, CNG, or small economical diesel vehicle...

Please point me to a US road legal 2012 LPG conversion...
Since when? Every day. Do you know anyone who bought a CNG Civic? Does everyone buying a Golf take the diesel?

Current emissions legality of LPG in the U.S. is a good point, but they're still legal here in Alberta and almost no one uses them now - consumers here have certainly demonstrated their preference.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:56 PM   #193
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I had a bi-fuel CNG pickup for a year or so. Bought it used (TX prison system was previous owner) with 100k miles. Repair costs and repair downtimes were ridiculous.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:02 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
.......
I don't know what a "car friendly" propane station would be - I would just pull a propane car up to the same bulk fill point where I fill the RV tank of my motorhome. All permanently mounted tanks (at least here) have the same "fast fill" fitting.

A 10% peak engine power loss is not the same as the volume increase in fuel consumption - propane falls more than 10% short of gasoline in energy content.
If you don't know what a car friendly propane station is I would suggest searching for it in EU.

Comparing volume usage LPG has about 10% higher consumption than gasoline. With newer LPG liquid injection system it is practically even. Most folks don't use full power so 10% difference in negligible.

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Old 12-19-2012, 07:58 PM   #195
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Mahindra

My company had a Mahindra tractor dealership before the recession hit. They are pretty good tractors but don't hold a candle to Kubota. The worst problem was getting them to honor the warranty. They are real penny pinchers. I doubt we will ever see the pickup.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:59 PM   #196
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If you don't know what a car friendly propane station is I would suggest searching for it in EU.
That's exceptionally unhelpful. What do you mean by "car friendly"? My car doesn't show affection for any kind of station - they all just need a readily accessible dispenser with a hose long enough to reach the filler opening, and a compatible nozzle.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:28 PM   #197
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Fuel costs

This morning when I fueled my vehicle ,gasoline was $3.09 / gal for 89 octane mid grade gasoline .Diesel was $ 4.38 /gal . The cost of diesel was 42% more than gasoline . My 2011 truck would have cost an additional $ 6000.00 if equipped with a diesel engine versus a gas engine . Based on the amount I drive per year , the cost of the diesel engine option , diesel fuel prices and how long I keep a vehicle ,I could never recover the costs .
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:40 AM   #198
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That's exceptionally unhelpful. What do you mean by "car friendly"? My car doesn't show affection for any kind of station - they all just need a readily accessible dispenser with a hose long enough to reach the filler opening, and a compatible nozzle.
LPG filling process on gas station in EU is similar to gas, push-in the LPG nozzle and its lever, push fill button, and after fill is automatically finished remove the nozzle. There is no screwing in, no screwdriver, no venting, no weighing or flow measurement indicating full.
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:35 PM   #199
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LPG filling process on gas station in EU is similar to gas, push-in the LPG nozzle and its lever, push fill button, and after fill is automatically finished remove the nozzle.
Now that's more helpful. I did later find a website showing the bayonet-style LPG connection now found in Europe. A decade ago, they apparently had multiple connection types so the situation was worse than in Canada and the U.S.

Current North American hardware include a stop-fill device (like the OPD on a portable cylinder, but appropriate to shut off filling, not just as a safety device).

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There is no screwing in, no screwdriver, no venting, no weighing or flow measurement indicating full.
The stop-fill device should eliminate the need to vent through the 80% level bleed valve.

North American propane tanks which use a bleed valve for fill indication now (for the last few decades) normally have a small three-sided knob on the bleed valve, so no screwdriver is required. No weighing is involved for a mounted tank (obviously), and flow measurement should never be used as a fill indication.

The only real difference is the more convenient EU bayonet nozzle, versus the North American fast-fill's hand-turned screw collar - but that could be the key to allowing self-serve (except, of course, in the states of Washington and New Jersey )

I really don't think having an attendant screw on the fast-fill collar keeps LPG from being available to North Americans... but that's just my opinion.
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Old 12-20-2012, 04:04 PM   #200
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Comparing volume usage LPG has about 10% higher consumption than gasoline.
Just as diesel has an advantage over gasoline (it contains more energy per unit volume), LPG has a disadvantage.
Fuel - Energy volumetric density
LPG propane - 25.3 (MJ/L)
LPG butane - 27.7 (MJ/L)
Gasoline - 34.2 (MJ/L)
Diesel - 37.3 (MJ/L)

In the same engine, adapted for different fuels, the LPG consumption will be higher. LPG is a mix of propane and butane; in Europe there is probably much higher butane content in LPG (which is why we just call it "propane") so volume consumed will be lower than with our LPG. If LPG allows higher compression ratio, higher efficiency can make up some of the difference.

Why does this matter? In considering fuel alternatives - including gasoline versus diesel - some physical reality helps to make an objective comparison.

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With newer LPG liquid injection system it is practically even.
Delivering fuel to the engine as a gas displaces air, reducing the mass of fuel-air mixture the engine can breathe, and thus reducing peak power, but not affecting efficiency. Injecting LPG as a liquid fixes this problem, so the peak power output can be similar to that with gasoline... but it doesn't change the fact that the amount of fuel required depends on the specific energy content of the fuel.

Natural gas has the same power-limiting issue, although with any fuel supercharging (including turbocharging) can make up for it.

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Most folks don't use full power so 10% difference in negligible.
In reality I agree, but in marketing a 10% power difference certainly does sway buyers. Discussions here in FiberglassRV confirm that this sort of rated power difference is considered relevant.
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