|
|
05-01-2012, 07:18 PM
|
#81
|
Senior Member
Trailer: 2008 20 ft Flagstaff Pop-Up (206ST) / 2005 Sienna
Posts: 1,416
|
So it's not how heavy the tow vehicle itself is but how strong the components are? If theoretically you could put those same heavy duty components in a smaller SUV etc (non unibody) they too could tow more than their curb weight? I guess that would be true given your example of an 18 wheeler only weighing 18,000lbs yet capable of towing and more importantly controlling 60,000lbs. I always thought it was the weight of the tow vehicle that was the biggest factor but thinking about semis that would not be the case.
Thanks for taking the time to explain in simple terms using the semi example.
Melissa
__________________
Melissa in Florida
1999 Toyota Sienna XLE
|
|
|
05-01-2012, 07:39 PM
|
#82
|
Senior Member
Trailer: 1990 Bigfoot 5th Wheel
Posts: 604
|
|
|
|
05-01-2012, 07:54 PM
|
#83
|
Senior Member
Trailer: 1988 16 ft Scamp Deluxe
Posts: 25,697
|
Cam, my eyes are leaking. How about them Mets?
__________________
Donna D.
Ten Forward - 2014 Escape 5.0 TA
Double Yolk - 1988 16' Scamp Deluxe
|
|
|
05-01-2012, 09:00 PM
|
#84
|
Senior Member
Trailer: 1974 Trillium 13 ft
Posts: 495
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by jen b
Question: has anybody here actually towed both in europe and in north america? Wondering whether there are any hands-on impressions of tow vehicle differences. (I've hauled horses in both places but not FGRVs)
|
I have never driven there, but read a lot of similar threads on other forums. If you look carefully at pictures of European trailers, you'll notice that most of them have their axles in the middle of the trailer and we have them closer to the rear. Their trailers are balanced differently and apply less hitch weight to the TV. Their hitch models are also different, and rely more on anti-sway systems than we do here. The entire towing philosophy and attitude is different (and yes, possibly smarter?).
Yes the laws of physics are the same, but you can't just blindly transpose what they have there over here without factoring-in everything. Otherwise, we should be allowed to drive with no speed limit here because they can on a German autobahn.
As others have pointed out, towing isn't just about vehicle tow ratings. In Europe there are cultural differences, different trailers, landscapes, different laws and lawyers, different standards, statistics, insurance policies, etc.
__________________
Driving on parkways and parking in driveways.
|
|
|
05-01-2012, 09:02 PM
|
#85
|
Senior Member
Name: george
Trailer: FunFinder
Missouri
Posts: 455
|
To the OP....here's my comments on "my motivation for towing over the limits". Almost 25 years ago I was towing a small enclosed cargo trailer with our dirt bikes in it to go to races. I towed with the car I had, because it was what I had and what I could afford. I towed for about a year with it, and finally decided it was just not sufficient to tow safely, so I sold the car and bought a pick up truck to pull it.
|
|
|
05-01-2012, 09:12 PM
|
#86
|
Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D.
How about them Mets?
|
Dang what the heck happened to the Canucks? how can you win your conference and then get blown out the first round?
|
|
|
05-01-2012, 10:18 PM
|
#87
|
Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
|
The average elevation of Europe is just under 1000ft.
The average elevation of N.America is just over 2000ft.
I was planning a joke about gravity, but hey... This could go a long ways in explaining the different tow ratings.
It could also explain the regional differences in N.America in the real need for TV size.
Heck ...And I was hoping to "prove" Europe has less gravity!
(and to show that the same is true about the subject at hand)
|
|
|
05-01-2012, 10:47 PM
|
#88
|
Senior Member
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,517
|
For fun and perspective gravity and air...
Floyd - for fun....
Actually surface variations of the earth are very small compared to the radius of the earth. Surface variations (hills and mountains) are the order of less than 1 part in a 1000. Gravity is related mostly to the volume of the earth and to a much lessor extent surface variation caused by hills and mountains.
The load on a tow vehicle has multiple components - weight being one and certainly a factor when climbing steep hills.
Head winds and air in general represent a surprisingly significant load. Anyone who drives into a head wind can attest to it's effect on mpg.
Air itself is a real load. Each time a trailer moves one trailer length it has to move about 50 lbs of air. In a mile of travel it has to displace 20,000 lbs or 10 tons of air. For a test, stick your hand out the window and feel the pressure than consider how big of a hand the trailer is. (Another reason not to have a roof AC, imagine the force on the front of that air conditioner compared to your hand)
As well one must consider that air density decreases with altitude, why baseballs historically travel further in Denver.
A little perspective on air and the load it presents to our tow vehicles.
__________________
Norm and Ginny
2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
|
|
|
05-02-2012, 05:36 AM
|
#89
|
Senior Member
Name: Wayne
Trailer: Airstream Sold, Nest Fan
Ontario
Posts: 2,002
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmw photos
To the OP....here's my comments on "my motivation for towing over the limits". Almost 25 years ago I was towing a small enclosed cargo trailer with our dirt bikes in it to go to races. I towed with the car I had, because it was what I had and what I could afford. I towed for about a year with it, and finally decided it was just not sufficient to tow safely, so I sold the car and bought a pick up truck to pull it.
|
My experience was similar but the outcome somewhat different.
Back in the 70's my Dad towed a 19' Golden Falcon with a big V8, 1972 Ford LTD.
Because it was set up for towing I borrowed it to tow a 1967 Dodge GT (on a car hauler). It was not well ballanced and did not have a WDH or sway control. Took the back roads home because it didn't handle well at all.
Fast forward 40 years later: Now from the full sized car to a mid sized V6 sport sedan. A pro set up that uses a custom receiver, WDH with sway control, and all the technology that makes modern vehicles so much better than the old iron.
The combination today is a dream to drive. Stabilty, braking, starting, stopping, fuel economy, is just great.
|
|
|
05-02-2012, 08:39 AM
|
#90
|
Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by honda03842
Floyd - for fun....
Actually surface variations of the earth are very small compared to the radius of the earth. Surface variations (hills and mountains) are the order of less than 1 part in a 1000. Gravity is related mostly to the volume of the earth and to a much lessor extent surface variation caused by hills and mountains.
The load on a tow vehicle has multiple components - weight being one and certainly a factor when climbing steep hills.
Head winds and air in general represent a surprisingly significant load. Anyone who drives into a head wind can attest to it's effect on mpg.
Air itself is a real load. Each time a trailer moves one trailer length it has to move about 50 lbs of air. In a mile of travel it has to displace 20,000 lbs or 10 tons of air. For a test, stick your hand out the window and feel the pressure than consider how big of a hand the trailer is. (Another reason not to have a roof AC, imagine the force on the front of that air conditioner compared to your hand)
As well one must consider that air density decreases with altitude, why baseballs historically travel further in Denver.
A little perspective on air and the load it presents to our tow vehicles.
|
Did you think this was serious?...
"Heck ...And I was hoping to "prove" Europe has less gravity!
(and to show that the same is true about the subject at hand) "
But seriously, you have hit on a point which I have tried to make many times here without success.Every TV manufacturer includes "frontal area" in their tow ratings, yet it is largely ignored, as if weight were the only important factor.
Sometimes an empty box trailer can prove to be more of a "load" than a loaded open car trailer in the right conditions.
Air density decreases with altitude which causes the tow vehicle to suffer a loss of power(even with electronic engine controls) which would offset at least some of the gain. Consider that the baseball travels further in Denver, but not enough further to make-up for the adverse effect on a chubby batter's running performance.
It is true that there are many variables. The truth is that while the cited average elevation difference is interesting, the extremes are not comensurately so, which renders any related argument facetious,
both as it applies to air density and to the "gravity" of the argument.
BTW; Would that be the "mass" of the earth as opposed to the "volume" ?
|
|
|
05-02-2012, 09:23 AM
|
#91
|
Senior Member
Trailer: Trillium 2010
Posts: 5,185
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd
BTW; Would that be the "mass" of the earth as opposed to the "volume" ?
|
That's what Mr. Newton thought.
|
|
|
05-02-2012, 09:38 AM
|
#92
|
Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
|
I suspect Raz that Newton was correct in this case as you know Mass is a measure of the quantity of matter present in an object. Volume is a measure of how much space it occupies.
Mass is used in the calculation of gravity. The weight of an object is the force of gravity on the object and may be defined as the mass times the acceleration of gravity, w = mg. Since the weight is a force, its SI unit is the newton.
|
|
|
05-02-2012, 01:02 PM
|
#93
|
Senior Member
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,517
|
Kidding
Floyd,
I ws kidding as well thinking this thread could use information and smiles... though I think it's not often understood how smooth the earth is compared to it's radius.
As to my comments on air, I had recently received a question about towing and I calculated how much air needs to be moved in a mile and what it weighs.
Having to displace air is another reason to take it easy; the power required to over come air resistance increases as the cube of the velocity, 65 mph requires 67% more energy than 55 mph.
__________________
Norm and Ginny
2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
|
|
|
05-02-2012, 02:12 PM
|
#94
|
Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by honda03842
Floyd,
I ws kidding as well thinking this thread could use information and smiles... though I think it's not often understood how smooth the earth is compared to it's radius.
As to my comments on air, I had recently received a question about towing and I calculated how much air needs to be moved in a mile and what it weighs.
Having to displace air is another reason to take it easy; the power required to over come air resistance increases as the cube of the velocity, 65 mph requires 67% more energy than 55 mph.
|
Which is why my Escape loves 57MPH and hates 65MPH when towing. While it will do it, it costs 5 to 7MPG to get it done. Air handling is also a large part of why the Scamp 13 tows so well. Oddly enough my bikes don't seem to matter much,and they are on the front of the trailer.
57mph is right on the sweet spot for my combo for all factors of power, speed an gearing.
|
|
|
05-02-2012, 02:33 PM
|
#95
|
Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
|
The original question was about one's motivation to exceed manufacturer's recommended towing limits.
My take from the answers (on topic) so far is that there are two major considerations. First, is whether towing a heavier trailer creates a safety hazard and secondly, whether it creates a risk of damaging the tow vehicle.
I get the sense that few here would knowingly create a hazard to others, but some are willing to accept the risk of overheating their transmission for instance, or creating excessive wear on their clutch.
So, perhaps it would help in future discussions to parse the discussion toward the safety or durability risk as opposed to lumping both issues together.
|
|
|
05-02-2012, 03:20 PM
|
#96
|
Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
So, perhaps it would help in future discussions to parse the discussion toward the safety or durability risk as opposed to lumping both issues together.
|
LOL thats a nice suggestion Thomas but I suspect it will not work as you will note that there are really only a handful of folks here who are willing to acknowledge they are towing over the manufactures tow ratings and dont see the connect between the two issues. While on the other hand you have a whole lot more folks who believe the two issues are very much connected and therefore when this topic is raised the two will be unavoidable be lumped together.
|
|
|
05-02-2012, 03:52 PM
|
#97
|
Senior Member
Name: jim
Trailer: 2022 Escape19 pulled by 2014 Dodge Ram Hemi Sport
Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,710
|
Interesting article on wind resistance and frontal area of your tv and trailer. Seems that weight is not the only factor we need to consider when towing, frontal area is another factor.
Trailer Towing Experience : Ford Flex Forum
|
|
|
05-02-2012, 03:55 PM
|
#98
|
Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol H
LOL that's a nice suggestion Thomas but I suspect it will not work ............
|
OK, maybe I'll work on something simple like world peace, instead........
|
|
|
05-02-2012, 04:05 PM
|
#100
|
Senior Member
Trailer: 92 16 ft Scamp
Posts: 11,756
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
OK, maybe I'll work on something simple like world peace, instead........
|
Or we could move on to debating the Devils and Flyers series instead as it at least would come to an end
|
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
» Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
» Upcoming Events |
No events scheduled in the next 465 days.
|
|