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03-31-2018, 08:47 AM
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#21
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Senior Member
Name: Robert
Trailer: 2015 Escape 19 "Past Tents" 2018 F150 Lariat 2.7L EB SuperCrew
Arkansas
Posts: 1,298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman
From what I've read it appears that a friction anti-sway bar simply masks a real problem.
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Spot on. Find out what's causing the sway (Most likely insufficient tongue weight) and fix that. Nothing wrong with a sway bar, but it's not a substitute for proper loading.
__________________
"You can't buy happiness, but you can buy an RV. And that is pretty close."
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03-31-2018, 08:54 AM
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#22
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclifrickson
Inflate your Scamp’s tires to the max cold inflation pressure that is stamped on the tire sidewall. Presumably you have ST (special trailer) tires, not P (passenger) tires? ST have a stiffer sidewall and handle the unique forces of trailering much better than P tires. Unlike car tires, your trailer should always run at max pressure, in part because they lose load capacity when under inflated. Also they can get squirrelly.
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Assuming they are load range C, yes, go to 50 psi. That is Scamp's recommendation, and it is sound. At 2800# you are running a fairly heavy Scamp 16. If they are load range D, I'm not sure I'd go all the way to 65 psi, though.
I'd also increase the tow vehicle pressure, too. My Pilot has LT's and specifies 32 psi. On the advice of my tire dealer I have run 38 psi for years with excellent tread wear and little discernible deterioration in handling and ride quality. We got 77K miles of perfectly even wear out of our recently retired Michelins. Our loading varies greatly from one person and no cargo to four people plus cargo plus Scamp 13.
I don't know that either will significantly improve stability- tire pressure is really a secondary factor- but your tires will be happier.
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03-31-2018, 09:36 AM
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#23
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordon2
Another note.. friction sway bars are not effective when wet, so if you are relying on it to control sway then it probably wont help when you need it most, in the rain. More reason to have the rig stable first and without added sway control.
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Friction sway bars, like brakes, are less effective when wet, tires are less effective when wet, visibility is less effective when wet, traction is less effective when wet...
Try this without water!..
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03-31-2018, 09:44 AM
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#24
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp 16 ft Side Dinette
Posts: 1,279
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Obviously lots of experience showing in all these replies.
A couple of other things that can aggravate sway: A loose ball mount where it fits into the receiver - add a snubber, or set screw, A too long ball mount - get the hitch ball as close to the TV as possible, Jerky steering - keep a steady hand on the wheel.
It does help to have a friction sway bar. Remember to loosen it before backing up.
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03-31-2018, 09:56 AM
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#25
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Junior Member
Name: Bruce
Trailer: Boler
Alberta
Posts: 8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber Wolf
I had some sway a few times and while maybe not life-threatening it was very concerning for a few tense moments. Once to avoid a crash I got run off the road and while correcting things got pretty scary. Other times I notice big flat-fronted motorhomes passing me at high speed caused un-nerving sway. Since I installed one of the inexpensive friction sway controllers all is OK with the world. I never loosen it except if I need to when taking it off or installing it and have found it no hinderence to backing. I did completely jack-knife the trailer both ways after installing it just to make sure nothing bound up before hitting the road. All in the sway bar is the second best improvement I made to the safe towing of my Scamp. The first was a new axle with new, bigger (10" instead of 7") brakes.
I am going to step out a little here with some personal soap-boxing. I have no interest in raggedy-edge towing. By that I mean I tow my 16' Scamp with a half-ton pickup truck and feel safe with my family out on the road. It seems like sometimes people post with what is basically "how small/light a tow vehicle can I get away with" questions. Or "I have X mini tug, can I tow an FGRV?" Maybe, but I am not doing it.
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This I whole heartedly agree with I would rather have overkill and be safe than live on the edge of possible disaster.
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03-31-2018, 10:12 AM
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#26
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceJ
This I whole heartedly agree with I would rather have overkill and be safe than live on the edge of possible disaster.
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Like running in clown shoes! Hard to stub your toe!
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03-31-2018, 10:43 AM
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#27
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman
From what I've read it appears that a friction anti-sway bar simply masks a real problem.
Let's take a look at the anti-sway bar does. actually let's look at the ball and hitch. The ball is mostly round and the hitch connects to it. This allows free movement between the trailer and tow vehicle. No skidding of tires, or extra wear of the trailer tires.
What does an (misnormered) anti-sway bar do. It stiffens the connection so the turning the trailer tires could skid. If the road is slick the trailer can whip from inside the turn to the outside dragging the tow vehicle with it. Simple HS physics.
The best thing to do if you have what appears to be sway find out why and fix it. Masking will sooner or later get you into trouble.
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The objection to friction sway controls always goes to a Strawman wearing a mask. Simple GS reading.
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03-31-2018, 11:32 AM
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#28
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd
The objection to friction sway controls always goes to a Strawman wearing a mask. Simple GS reading.
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Since you're the self proclaimed expert in everything would you explain exactly what an anti-friction sway bar does?
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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03-31-2018, 12:33 PM
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#29
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman
Since you're the self proclaimed expert in everything would you explain exactly what an anti-friction sway bar does?
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First, I have made no such proclamation!(thanks anyway)
Secondly, I agree that a friction sway control should not be misused in an effort to correct any unsafe condition.
What it does...
It acts as a brake, effectively providing proportional resistance to the forces which would otherwise allow relatively unimpeded lateral rotation of the coupler on the ball attached to the hitch through the ball mount.
It does so while still allowing rotation for maneuverability.
Friction-style sway control effectively helps prevent trailer sway and even fights it after it begins. It reduces side-to-side movement caused by winds, passing traffic, curving roads, or sudden maneuvers.
It is adjustable to allow you set the optimum amount of resistance for your application and conditions.
It is not designed to mask or correct any deficiency, but rather to enhance the driver's comfort and control while towing.
Thank you for providing the impetus for clarification on this subject and for your contribution to better understanding.
Loki below...
The first one is a mask, which as you imply, could cause a lot of mischief ...the second one is a friction sway control.
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03-31-2018, 01:24 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
Name: bob
Trailer: Was A-Liner now 13f Scamp
Missouri
Posts: 3,209
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Maybe not to hurt anyones feelings or has been mentioned maybe we have people towing that either are over-condfident in their rig and their tug or maybe sadly shouldn't be towing anything.
as mentioned earlier a guy was following a man tugging a trailer and it was fishtailing talk about a disaster ready to happen and no doubt he is right at it now!
I have to admit I had this happen once I sort of figured it out but on that same hill I have seen it happen to someone else.
just because we have a tank for a tug or tires rated for 80mph doesn't mean we should be driving that way!
all the extra devices may work or they may not! if you want to add them I am in favor of it for you.
bob
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04-01-2018, 01:09 PM
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#31
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Member
Name: Tim
Trailer: Scamp 16' Deluxe side bath
Minnesota
Posts: 63
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Sway bar
Last year on my way down to Fla on interstate 65 in Alabama, I was cut off by a texting driver causing me to swerve to the right onto the shoulder. My action was so quick our 16 scamp started to sway immediately. I probably hit the brakes to slow and avoid the cut off (not helping the sway) but got it under control rather quickly. Saved by my tension sway bar. Without it I'm sure it could have been disaster. I Will never travel without one.
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04-01-2018, 06:59 PM
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#32
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Member
Name: Ethan
Trailer: 2019 Parkliner
New York
Posts: 78
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Do not have trailer. But saw this ,any thoughts? Hayes 81775 Sway Master-Electronic Sway Control.
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04-01-2018, 07:16 PM
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#33
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Senior Member
Trailer: 2004 13 ft Scamp Custom Deluxe
Posts: 8,520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan
Do not have trailer. But saw this ,any thoughts? Hayes 81775 Sway Master-Electronic Sway Control.
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Don't know if I would call it "cheap" but it looks like a nice product!
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04-01-2018, 11:38 PM
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#34
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floyd
First, I have made no such proclamation!(thanks anyway)
Secondly, I agree that a friction sway control should not be misused in an effort to correct any unsafe condition.
What it does...
It acts as a brake, effectively providing proportional resistance to the forces which would otherwise allow relatively unimpeded lateral rotation of the coupler on the ball attached to the hitch through the ball mount.
It does so while still allowing rotation for maneuverability.
Friction-style sway control effectively helps prevent trailer sway and even fights it after it begins. It reduces side-to-side movement caused by winds, passing traffic, curving roads, or sudden maneuvers.
It is adjustable to allow you set the optimum amount of resistance for your application and conditions.
It is not designed to mask or correct any deficiency, but rather to enhance the driver's comfort and control while towing.
Thank you for providing the impetus for clarification on this subject and for your contribution to better understanding.
Loki below...
The first one is a mask, which as you imply, could cause a lot of mischief ...the second one is a friction sway control.
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There's one thing that bothers, well actually two.
One. commercial trucks and trailers don't have friction anto-sway devices. The connection is allowed to pivot freely, only travel trailers seem to require them, why?
two. There's this thing called coefficient of friction that I thing is an important part of this. If the coefficient of friction of the anti-sway device is close to each other like tire wear will be the results. The coefficient of friction of the tires always needs to be higher then that of anti-sway device. If the coefficient of friction ends to where the anti-sway device has a greater coefficient of friction than the tires you're in real trouble. So how do you know when you're getting close that point? Probably don't until it's too late.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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04-02-2018, 06:34 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman
...There's this thing called coefficient of friction that I thing is an important part of this. If the coefficient of friction of the anti-sway device is close to each other like tire wear will be the results. The coefficient of friction of the tires always needs to be higher then that of anti-sway device. If the coefficient of friction ends to where the anti-sway device has a greater coefficient of friction than the tires you're in real trouble. So how do you know when you're getting close that point? Probably don't until it's too late.
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Are you asking how you know when your friction anti-sway bar is too tight in slippery conditions, or is this about the possibility of tire scrubbing in normal, dry conditions?
The manufacturer takes the blanket approach of "disconnect in any low traction situation- rain, snow, ice, gravel,..."
I think there's room for common sense.
I don't see myself towing in winter conditions, but if I did, I'd follow their advice and disconnect. One, I'll be driving slow enough where sway is not an issue. Two, preventing jackknifing is largely dependent on driver skill and traction at the tires, so winter tires, studs, and/or chains are the only real help.
On gravel back roads, I won't be going fast enough to generate sway or get into a serious skid, but I might have to make some tight turns, so I'd probably disconnect.
Rain is the most likely reduced-traction situation and represents a grey area in my mind. In a steady light or moderate rain on a good road, the reduction in tire grip is not dramatic, so I'd reduce sway bar tension somewhat and slow down. On the other hand, in a sudden, heavy downpour, it's probably not worth a soaking to adjust the tension. I'd just slow way down and drive through it or pull over and wait it out.
I'm having a hard time imagining the sway bar having enough resistance to overcome tire adhesion in normal, dry conditions. Do you know a specific situation in which that occurred?
The argument that sway bars cause skids is akin to the argument that seat belts cause traffic fatalities. You can always find isolated cases in which the safety device made a bad situation worse, but the body of evidence is that the device is effective in the majority of likely scenarios.
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04-02-2018, 09:10 AM
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#36
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member
Name: J
Isle of Wight
Posts: 536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman
There's one thing that bothers, well actually two.
One. commercial trucks and trailers don't have friction anto-sway devices. The connection is allowed to pivot freely, only travel trailers seem to require them, why?
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Compare the axle position on a 18-wheeler's trailer with your travel trailer.
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04-02-2018, 11:13 AM
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#37
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Senior Member
Name: David
Trailer: Former 13’Scamp, now Snoozy
Arizona
Posts: 2,316
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I have read where some have tried to backup with the anti-sway device still connected and probably over tightened, and instead of tires losing traction, the sway device bent almost in half.
Dave & Paula
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04-02-2018, 02:52 PM
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#38
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by widgetwizard
Compare the axle position on a 18-wheeler's trailer with your travel trailer.
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18 wheeler is NOT the only commercial tow. Dump trucks towing a Dump trailer using a pintle hitch. A pickup towing a 5th wheel trailer of any kind. U Haul trailer.
I just spent about how on the freeway looking trailer and hitches in an attempt to find any that had an anti-sway device. NOPE none did. The only place I've ever seen one is on a small travel trailer. Never on a utility trailer.
Wonder why that is.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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04-02-2018, 02:57 PM
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#39
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Senior Member
Trailer: Casita Patriot
Posts: 329
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Quote:
I have read where some have tried to backup with the anti-sway device still connected and probably over tightened, and instead of tires losing traction, the sway device bent almost in half.
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yeah, that can happen. i've a "friend" that bent his bar backing up and turning sharp. not bent double mind you but well bent. i ...err, he found a machine shop and used their monster press to make it straight again. charged me ...err, him 10 bucks. these days i always remover that bar before backing....well, most of the time.
p@
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04-02-2018, 03:02 PM
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#40
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman
18 wheeler is NOT the only commercial tow. Dump trucks towing a Dump trailer using a pintle hitch. A pickup towing a 5th wheel trailer of any kind. U Haul trailer.
I just spent about how on the freeway looking trailer and hitches in an attempt to find any that had an anti-sway device. NOPE none did. The only place I've ever seen one is on a small travel trailer. Never on a utility trailer.
Wonder why that is.
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Different dynamics is my guess. Commercial pull-behind trailers tend to be low and compact with lots of tongue weight, less affected by side drafts, pulled by heavy-duty trucks. Commercial trailers are often used for shorter trips around town, lower speeds, less open highway.
U-Haul designs their trailers to make them less vulnerable to sway. But sway related accidents still occur regularly, usually blamed on improper loading.
Fifth wheel dynamics are much different due to pin weight and location, so that is irrelevant to this thread. They have issues of their own- search "fifth wheel bucking"- but not usually sway.
Travel trailers are often light for their size, catch a lot of wind, and are larger relative to the size and mass of the tow vehicle. It's not just small travel trailers that use sway bars. Many larger pull-behind travel trailers use them too, either as add-on friction devices in addition to WDH, or integrated into some WDH designs.
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