Tow vehicle?

[jgilliam1955]

I watched YouTube about a couple ( he owned a trucking company ).
He ordered a Freightliner Class C RV. When they picked it up they would not show him the weight numbers. When they got home they found just them sitting in the vehicle they were over the limit. They could not drive the RV. They sued and won. They proved they were told it had a 5000 carrying capacity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WupfFbSw5Jo

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. I'm talking about tow ratings and you mention curb weight. In the US, curb weight does not include the driver or any passengers; they are considered part of the payload (Cornell Law). On the other hand, manufacturers following the SAE J2807 tow testing standard (which is now most of them) base tow ratings on two occupants.

EU standards, practices, and tow ratings are often different, but that is irrelevant to this thread, since the question is about a NA-spec vehicle pulling a NA-spec trailer on NA highways.

I agree the bottom-line numbers from a legal standpoint are those on the door sticker: GVWR, GAWRs, and GCWR. If you can make all those numbers work with a trailer over the tow rating, then I think you could make a case it's a safe rig. More often, it's the other way: the trailer is within the tow rating but the tow vehicle is overweight on the GVWR and/or RAWR due to excessive payload.

Certainly tow ratings are somewhat arbitrary. I would guess they are typically decided in the design phase of model development based on market demand in that vehicle class. The engineers design to the target, while building in a certain margin to minimize warranty costs. Once the vehicle is built, it is tow-tested to the target. It may well be tested beyond the target to make sure there is ample margin, but the final, published tow rating is what the design team decided it needed to be. ​

But since you got me thinking, I happen to have a beloved 1500# tow-rated CUV in my driveway ('06 Honda CRV SE AWD), and I looked up some numbers.
From the DOT door sticker, GVWR = 4450#, GAWR = 2200#(front) and 2290#(rear)
From another door sticker, "combined weight of occupants and cargo should not exceed 850#," from which I deduce that the curb weight must be 4450-850 = 3600#. Online sources put it about 100# lower (for the exact model and trim), but I'll take it according to the sticker.
From the towing section of the owner's manual, GCWR = 5950#

The weight of our lightly optioned 13' Scamp varies, but typical is 1750/200#.

So let's say my wife and I are on board, 310#, plus another 100# of miscellaneous cargo, so 410#. Then add a hitch and drawbar (75#) and the tongue weight of our 13' Scamp (200#) and we're up to 685# total payload.

The curb weight of the vehicle is 3600# plus our payload of 685# brings us to 4285# GVW, which is within the 4450# GVWR. So far, so good.

Add the 4285# GVW plus the axle weight of the Scamp (1750-200 = 1550#) yields a GCW of 5835#, which is also less that the GCWR of 5950#. Not a lot of margin, but still within spec.

My biggest concern would be the load on the rear axle exceeding its rating due to the cantilever effect of tongue weight, but it's difficult to to calculate accurately in advance.

Bottom line is an 1750# trailer will be marginal for this vehicle and might well overload the rear axle. Even one extra person puts you over on everything. The 1500# tow rating seems on target and consistent with the DOT weight ratings for this vehicle. There's a little wiggle room, but not much.

Jon -



I brought up curb weight as the starting point for deriving the useful load onboard carrying & towing capacity of the vehicle - in addition to the HW & GTWR of the trailer, & what is "left over" at the axles' GAWR.



I wasn't disagreeing with anything except what I understood was curb weight, which apparently is still only including the driver in EU & UK standards (that was supposed to change here too also including a driver at some point), & then was only adding to the info on calculating payloads relative to GCWR, GAWR, GTWR, etc.



However to be clear to all - I stand corrected on the driver being included in the USA Curb Weight - as I thought that DOT had updated their standards to be consistent with the EU standards which has included the driver since at least 2009 (or earlier); as well as stand corrected that the SAE J2807 tow testing standard includes both driver & 1 passenger at 150# each, as I thought that it tracked with the curb weight with only driver.



The EU standard is curb weight to include a 165# (75 KG) driver - so my 150# was off too, but that is the number used by J2807 for driver/passenger.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_weight

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ...5L0048:EN:HTML



And for those who don't want to pay SAE to download the J2807 info at the link you listed above - they can get most of the relevant numbers for free from this Truck Trends (Motor Trend) article at the link below. That SAE test would also be the one used to rate cars & CUVs if the manufacturers here ever start doing that again, as they did with the Big 3 cars up until about the 1970s-80s (usually with a towing option).



https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/15...-the-standard/



This also has layman info for the various weight ratings, without trudging through an entire Law section, which some may find useful:



https://www.motortrend.com/features/...d-definitions/



In any case - everybody should be aware that whenever driver &/or passenger(s) are included in curb wt., tow rating, etc. - that either/both 150# &/or 165# is usually inadequate for the average human today anywhere in the world. So you'll have to add some pounds for you & your passenger(s) actual weights over that.



I understand that those 150# & 165# figures came about back in the 1930's when using average weights for aircraft passengers for weight & balance calculations - if they weren't actually weighing each passenger & their luggage. So it's way out of date.



On your CRV's GCVW calculation - I thought that it included the full weight of the trailer including HW - unless you're adding that into the TV's total weight GVWR - since it has to bear & be pulled somewhere. But I could be wrong.



Although most manufacturers here have gotten onboard with the the SAE J2807 tow testing standard for rating most of their vehicles since it became effective in 2015 IIRC - there are still some holdouts not using it for at least some vehicles &/or electing to not tow rate many capable vehicles for towing at all - even if tow rated elsewhere in the ROW, including the Big 3 here selling in ROW.



I completely disagree with you that the EU & ROW tow ratings are irrelevant here in the USA nor Canada, nor anywhere else. There is nothing binding on being limited to only the USA's SAE J2807 test - when it's voluntary for the manufacturers; nor to have any tow rating at all for any particular vehicle so long as it can safely pull, stop & maneuver with whatever it is towing - which EU or ROW tow ratings have been accepted by some of the CHP officers I know as prima facie that the TV+TT rig is safe; and complies with the particular state's or province's towing speed limit for cars/CUVs (i.e.: non-trucks) - which is only 55 mph in California BTW.



So the reason I was including non-NA ratings was as stated in my prior post - for ROW vehicles sold here in the USA & Canada which are rated for towing in the UK, EU & other ROW countries - but not so rated here. They're not rated here both due to the time & expense of doing separate USA/SAE tow ratings here, & because they prefer to sell higher profit margin SUV/CUV/Truck TVs here & it's primarily market driven.



That is in fact on point to the OP's question & anyone else reading here who owns or wants to buy a non-USA-traditional TV (i.e.: not the pick-up, SUV or some CUVs that the manufacturers want to sell you in the USA/Canada - not sure about Mexico, so not using NA).



There really is no reason why someone cannot buy a GM, Ford/Lincoln, Chrysler, VW, Opel, Audi, Porsche, MBZ, BMW, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infinity, Honda/Accord, or any other car, stationwagon, CUV, etc. which are in fact duly rated to tow elsewhere in the ROW. They are in fact fully capable TVs here in the US/CAN to the same extent as they are in the ROW, and there is no legal restriction against towing with any of them.



So if someone wants to buy an Audi A6 Avant or Porsche Panamera or any other vehicle rated to to 5000# - 7000# by the EU or any other ROW test standards - then there really is nothing to stop them from doing so, so long as they have the TV & TT properly set-up with hitch, brakes, etc.



BTW all - Trailer brakes vary if/when required by state/province - in CA it's over 1500# GTW requiring brakes, even if your home state has a higher limit, when folks may come to visit CA - & other states may have lower limits (IIRC somewhere had 1000#, but don't recall the state). That would be based on the GTWR - & not how heavy your trailer is actually loaded at the time, so it won't get you off the hook with the CHP, as one of our vintage trailer buddies found out the hard way.



As you stated - vehicles are designed to a certain performance target, which may include tow rating - but not always a specific towing capability, & it's just tested later on as a secondary factor.



Also, folks should note that in the Euro Countries & the UK - WD hitches were outlawed in the 1960's in order to protect their home country/region trailer manufacturers that primarily built/build lighter weight trailers not requiring WD when towed by smaller to mid-sized Euro/UK cars & stationwagons (by whatever name they called them). That still exists today, but here in the US they are allowed to use WD on any tow vehicle, but the Euro/UK manufacturers don't always change their owner's manuals to reflect USA vs EU/UK standards on WD hitches, but will do so on their factory hitch rating decals (when the proper USA/CAN decal is used ;-).



This has created almost a monthly or more often query over on the AirForums big topic on Cayenne/Touareg/Audi Q7 - which also includes owners of other Euro, Brit & Asian mid-sized SUVs/CUVs - where they read the non-USA-updated owners' manual prohibiting or not recommending WD based on the EU/UK laws, but their hitch had both "weight bearing" (bare ball/coupler) & "distributed" weight ratings. It's a Groundhog Day deja vu moment each time.



So I offer this info for anyone towing with a BMW, MBZ, VW, Porsche, or other SUV/CUV here, & wondering if they can use a WD/AS hitch on their heavier FG &/or other larger trailer. Yes you can, look for the hitch receiver decal, or ask your dealer/maker for the proper USA decal if they mistakenly stuck the EU/UK decal on instead (also happened on that C/T/Q topic many times), which they must correct for free under DOT & NTSB rules.



All that said - Andy T's video & his many "Hitch Hints" articles covers most of that info for those who want to watch &/or read more.



Hopefully this both corrects my prior errors & helps folks reading this regarding TVs. I've already PMed with the OP, so I know that they're on the right track now for their TV & Boler.




PS - Please excuse this double spacing that all of the RV Life forum websites do to those of us using the Firefox browser, but I'm just not to waste any more time going back every time to take out the extra spaces. RV Life has known about this for many years & still hasn't fixed their platform problem, while all of the many other web forum platforms that I use do not have this problem.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Jon in AZ]

Tom, not quoting your whole response, but just noting that yes, I had already included hitch weight in the GVW, so I only added the trailer axle weight to calculate the GCW.

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

Tom, not quoting your whole response, but just noting that yes, I had already included hitch weight in the GVW, so I only added the trailer axle weight to calculate the GCW.

Jon -



Responding to your comment missing above, but from the FG Forum email to me with your EU tow ratings:



"The EU vs. NA tow rating disparity has been thoroughly debated many times. Even when the tow vehicles are mechanically identical, trailers and towing laws and practices are not."



I'm really not sure if we're in disagreement - if you're just saying that folks need to follow US towing laws here, and towing practices as applicable - or if you're saying that using non-USA/CAN/NA tow ratings is somehow against our US towing laws?



Using a non-J2807 tow rated vehicle to tow in the USA is not illegal, nor is it illegal to rely on the EU/UK & other ROW tow ratings for vehicles. So that is neither a law nor practice matter nor violation.



I don't want folks on here to get the incorrect impression that we cannot tow with a vehicle rated for towing elsewhere, nor not rated at all - so long as they're set up properly, & tow following the applicable states' & provinces' laws.



In fact there are no towing laws requiring the use of only a manufacturer tow rated vehicle with which to tow.



All trailers are different & we own both a US made 1960 Avion T20, & a German made Eriba Puck "Export" model (i.e.: only changed with US 110v & LP Stove/Icebox/Sink-&-Hand Pump) - but their weights/ratings & features are equally applied here in the US & Canada, as they would be in the UK, EU etc. They have USA trailers in the UK/EU & elsewhere - particularly in vintage form - but they have follow the laws there about not using WD hitches.



So I wasn't debating anything, but rather providing additional info for members who may be towing with Euro or Asian cars/CUVs etc as their TVs for ROW tow ratings which may be available, as well as for those who may have something like a VW Atlas or Tiquan, Audi Q5 or wagon/sedan, BMW X3, etc. who may read in their owners manual that WD is not allowed or discouraged, that the exclusion is for the UK & EU only.



Hopefully this clarifies any further questions on these matters.


Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by Tom_T

Using a non-J2807 tow rated vehicle to tow in the USA is not illegal, nor is it illegal to rely on the EU/UK & other ROW tow ratings for vehicles.

However, it would generally be a violation of motor vehicle laws to operate a motor vehicle in excess of the weight ratings listed on the DOT sticker on the door jamb. My calculations show that- at least for one popular model- it is not realistic to exceed the NA tow rating by any significant amount without exceeding one or more of those ratings.

More to the point of this thread, I cannot see the wisdom in purchasing a vehicle with a mere 1500# tow rating for the purpose of towing a molded fiberglass travel trailer. You might make it work for a few of the smallest and lightest 13'ers, but you will be always operating on thin margins. There are better alternatives.

As a personal post-script, part of me would really like to tow with our CRV. It is just a rock-solid vehicle and fun to drive. But running the numbers convinced me of what I always suspected: it's just too close to the limits with our 13' Scamp. I've had my eye on Meerkat for a while (or a vintage Puck if I could find one). Now that would make a well-matched rig with plenty of margin. Love yours!

[AlanKilian]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

As a personal post-script, part of me would really like to tow with our CRV.

We towed our 1987 Scamp 13' all over the midwest with our 2004 CRV.
It was a beautiful tow vehicle. Comfortable, capable and fuel-efficient.

(We go 60 MPH on highways and didn't have to "deal" with mountains. Your mileage may vary.)

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by AlanKilian

We towed our 1987 Scamp 13' all over the midwest with our 2004 CRV.
It was a beautiful tow vehicle. Comfortable, capable and fuel-efficient.

(We go 60 MPH on highways and didn't have to "deal" with mountains. Your mileage may vary.)

I'm sure it does fine under those conditions. If I didn't have mountains, canyons, strong winds, and high elevations to deal with, I might reconsider.

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

However, it would generally be a violation of motor vehicle laws to operate a motor vehicle in excess of the weight ratings listed on the DOT sticker on the door jamb. My calculations show that- at least for one popular model- it is not realistic to exceed the NA tow rating by any significant amount without exceeding one or more of those ratings.

More to the point of this thread, I cannot see the wisdom in purchasing a vehicle with a mere 1500# tow rating for the purpose of towing a molded fiberglass travel trailer. You might make it work for a few of the smallest and lightest 13'ers, but you will be always operating on thin margins. There are better alternatives.

As a personal post-script, part of me would really like to tow with our CRV. It is just a rock-solid vehicle and fun to drive. But running the numbers convinced me of what I always suspected: it's just too close to the limits with our 13' Scamp. I've had my eye on Meerkat for a while (or a vintage Puck if I could find one). Now that would make a well-matched rig with plenty of margin. Love yours!

Jon -



The OP already owns the car/CUV TV & it's rated at a bit more than 1500# - at 1750# or 1850# IIRC, & will be fine with their Boler.



I think he just wanted to see about general wisdom, plus his vintage Boler is lighter than the newer models, & he can load it & his TV so as not to exceed any limits, & with the guidance of Andy T/CanAm on set-up.



Along those lines - nobody has mentioned just keeping the trailer loaded within the tow rating of any TV - & I failed to mention it on here before too.



Nothing says that the OP nor anyone needs to tank all tanks to full nor stuff everything into their TT up to its max. GTWR - if they know it. And the rating number isn't necessarily what the load on the TV is, if properly loaded for the TV. The actual weighed weight as used/loaded/wet or dry is what's important.



Most older vintage trailers didn't even have nor post GTWR. For example, our 1960 Avion had no GTWR at all on any plaques nor owners manual - you have to figure it out from tire & wheel ratings at best, & actual weighing is what it is.




Re your comment above: "... it would generally be a violation of motor vehicle laws to operate a motor vehicle in excess of the weight ratings listed on the DOT sticker on the door jamb" -



There is also no rule to only tow a lesser % of the tow rating max. (e.g.: 70% or 80% of TWR as some have suggested), & in some cases it is okay to exceed them (recall my Chrysler 300 example at 5,000, then 1,000, then no rating - but nothing on it changed - see Andy T's articles on that, since he's towed with 300s).



Folks really should see that video that I posted, because there is a lot of discrepancy in the various ratings as listed by manufacturers - both plus & minus, good or bad - as the Freightliner RV case noted above.



And there is no law that I've seen in the Cal Vehicle Code saying that it's against the law to exceed any vehicle weight ratings, but in some cases it might be ill advised &/or wear out your TV faster (or even too heavily loaded when not towing). My CHP & CA Cop buddies have also said the same thing when talking trailers/towing & vehicle loading in general.



They may question the sanity of a 1960's VW Bug pulling a 30' Airstream - but probably wouldn't stop anyone towing for anything but exceeding 55 mph (or the street speed limit), following too close for safe stopping with the heavier load, lights out, etc. as actual CVC violations - not for exceeding GAWR, GCWR, etc. I doubt that any other states are more restrictive than here in CA.



So Jon - look at TheSamba links below for more info on Pucks & when they occasionally come up for sale.



Eriba Pucks Nailed Topic:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/vi...c.php?t=346080



TheSamba Classifieds:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/



That Puck topic was where we met the prior owner of our Puck, & I'd also posted when we were looking at another Puck just before.



Occasionally Pucks will get posted FS on this FG Forum too, but TheSamba Puck topic is more active here in the US.



It's been my understanding from automotive industry professionals with & familiar with Honda, & owners, that Honda understates the CRV, Pilot, & Ridgeline, etc. tow ratings below their actual capabilities.



Also from that video - the trailer's aerodynamics makes a bigger difference than the weight or length. One of our vintage trailer buddies towed their "Safari" square-box trailer with their `12 Ridgeline V6 with some sluggishness, but they could tow another buddy's longer & heavier 1960's Airstream quite easily, & at better speed & mpg too.



Your Scamp may actually tow pretty well behind your CRV, even if the number crunching is somewhat contrary or marginal by your calcs, & you can also save weight by tanking up at the destination campsite, as well as loading some of your stuff in the CRV's luggage area or roof rack.


So I suggest that you PM, email or call Andy T./CanAm about setting up your CRV for towing your Scamp, or if it truly is insufficient to tow it. You may just be able to enjoy the better ride of your CRV, if properly set-up with Andy's reccos (he can email you info & photos, docs, etc. for having any needed hitch & tow bar/ball adjustments to be done locally in AZ).



FYI -

https://www.rvlifemag.com/andy-thoms...v-hitch-hints/



Check it out before any more naysaying.



Cheers!
Tom
///////

[AlanKilian]

I saw this in my neighborhood over the summer.

I'm not sure if they tow like that often or not.

But..... YIKES!

[ShelbyM]

This thread has become a bit confused. I may have missed it but I don't think OP ever said what tow vehicle he was considering. He's not trying to make do with something he already has, so no reason to not get something appropriate for the weight of his trailer. If he is going to make assumptions rather than weigh his actual trailer, then the only safe assumption based on reported weights is closer to 2000# than 1500#. Also, there are ways to measure tongue weight with a bathroom scale. That may help him rule out some prospects based on payload alone.

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by skyaki

We have Bubba - a 1974 Boler which we enjoy very much. We are looking for a new tow vehicle. The vehicle which interests us has a tow capacity of 1500 lbs.
Boler weight is listed under 1000lbs, but I have read that realistically they are more like 1500lbs. We do not have access to a drive-through weigh scale. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank You.

Right there in the original post.

[ShelbyM]

Yeah, guess the specific vehicle doesn't matter. Expect he's moved on to something else anyway.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by ShelbyM

Yeah, guess the specific vehicle doesn't matter. Expect he's moved on to something else anyway.

The specific vehicle does matter, unless your only concern is rating and not capability.
The rating is of course a consideration, but it is foolish to think that all vehicles with the same rating are equal, it simply ain't so.


The same is true of trailer weight.
Weight is a consideration, but all trailers of the same weight are not equally towable.

[Komrade]

Rule of thumb, if you want to be comfortable towing, take tow trailer weight, and make sure your towing capacity is roughly double or at least 1.5x

I have a Tacoma V6 (6500 towing capacity), I tow moderate amounts.. it's great to tow my 17ft Casita (2200lb dry), starts to get uncomfortable with a Bigfoot 17.5 (3200lb dry), and starts to suck with a a 4000lb+ trailer (got rid of it)... it'll be easier on flats and interstate highways (which have moderate slopes), but once you get into the single lane mountain roads you will want more power. You'll also feel less challenged with semi's passing you on the highway.

[AlanKilian]

Originally Posted by Komrade

Rule of thumb, if you want to be comfortable towing, take tow trailer weight, and make sure your towing capacity is roughly double or at least 1.5x

I have a Tacoma V6 (6500 towing capacity), I tow moderate amounts.. it's great to tow my 17ft Casita (2200lb dry), starts to get uncomfortable with a Bigfoot 17.5 (3200lb dry), and starts to suck with a a 4000lb+ trailer (got rid of it)... it'll be easier on flats and interstate highways (which have moderate slopes), but once you get into the single lane mountain roads you will want more power. You'll also feel less challenged with semi's passing you on the highway.

Great advice in general, but I'd like to point out that what you experience might be not due to the %towing capacity, but rather that your trailer weight starts to exceed the weight of your tow vehicle.

https://autotk.com/weight/toyota/tacoma/#2015

I don't know which model or yer you have because you didn't specify, but it seems like they weigh around 3,700 - 4,000 pounds.

Things are MUCH better when towing a 1,500 pound trailer with a 1,500 pound-rated vehicle weighing 3,500 pounds.

Thanks for writing your experience with very large trailers.

I don't think they really apply to a 1,500 pounds range trailer though and they don't match my experiences with a 1977 bare-bones Scamp 13'

[Komrade]

I think a large trailer would be 5000lb+

But sure, a 2013 Double Cab Tacoma is a little over 4000lb (4,160 Lbs)

A 21ft BigFoot is not large, but still heavy for it's length (4300lb+ dry)
Trailer I got rid of was 27ft and around 4000lb dry.

I don't disagree weight of the vehicle has a lot to do with comfort, but so does length (longer is better) and power for those hills.

[skyaki]

This has been, and is, a very interesting and very informative discussion. Since my origimal post friends have bought a Rav4 Hybrid - towing weight 1750 lbs. We live in an area with some pretty steep hills. Our friends wanted to see if their new car would pull our Boler.
Absolutely no problem at all.
We have since bought a Rav4 Hybrid.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Komrade

Rule of thumb, if you want to be comfortable towing, take tow trailer weight, and make sure your towing capacity is roughly double or at least 1.5x

I have a Tacoma V6 (6500 towing capacity), I tow moderate amounts.. it's great to tow my 17ft Casita (2200lb dry), starts to get uncomfortable with a Bigfoot 17.5 (3200lb dry), and starts to suck with a a 4000lb+ trailer (got rid of it)... it'll be easier on flats and interstate highways (which have moderate slopes), but once you get into the single lane mountain roads you will want more power. You'll also feel less challenged with semi's passing you on the highway.

Who's thumb?
Apparently, the manufacturers thumbs were considered no good, so the SAE came up with J2807, which in turn is being judged inadequate.
If there really is a legitimate "rule of thumb" , it is not obvious and certainly does not stick out like a "sore thumb".
Seems somebody has his "thumb on the scale",


Your point is practical and perhaps well taken, but it can't possibly be based on solid reasoning if all the standards used to measure it are considered wrong...right?

[ShelbyM]

Since two of the three 13' Boler weights posted here are over your tow weight, you really should have the trailer weighed. You may be OK but you are rolling the dice against odds provided by the admittedly small data. I expect you'll enjoy the hybrid, even if it doesn't work as your tow vehicle.

[jerrybob]

I have towed for years......my personal preference.....I like a bigger than needed tow vehicle. We tow our 17ft Casita with a 2019 Ram crew cab....it has the 5.7 Hemi....a 3.92 rear end.....4x4 with a tow package. It tows like a dream....regardless of terrain. Best riding vehicle I have ever owned. With an 8 speed tranny and MDS.....I get 16 to 17 mpg towing and 20 to 21 mpg not towing. The truck doesn't know the trailer is back there......I do not need a WD
unit. I also tow a car trailer with a 4500lb tractor on it.....the truck performs well. My truck is rated at towing 11,500lbs.......I never come close to that but having more power when you need it is sure great......my two cents.