Towing 13' Scamp 2004 with Outback

[Anne MP]

Hi. We are considering buying a 2004, 13' Scamp and pulling it with our Subaru Outback, The seller weighed the trailer today and it came in at 1580lbs. It has the factory installed A/C, awning, bathroom in front. The Outback is rated to tow 2700lbs but with two people, adding a propane tank, and our stuff, it seems reasonable that we will be in the 2150lbs range. That is just at the 20% mark recommended for safe towing.



I'd love to hear from anyone who has pulled their trailer when the weight is this close to the safe tow limit? Thanks for your thoughts and experience.


Anne MP

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Anne MP

Hi. We are considering buying a 2004, 13' Scamp and pulling it with our Subaru Outback, The seller weighed the trailer today and it came in at 1580lbs. It has the factory installed A/C, awning, bathroom in front. The Outback is rated to tow 2700lbs but with two people, adding a propane tank, and our stuff, it seems reasonable that we will be in the 2150lbs range. That is just at the 20% mark recommended for safe towing.



I'd love to hear from anyone who has pulled their trailer when the weight is this close to the safe tow limit? Thanks for your thoughts and experience.


Anne MP

The trailer weighs 1580, with 180 pounds of tongue weight you are left with 1400 pounds on the axle.
The tongue weight (180#) is part of the payload on the car.
People and other things hauled in the car are payload not tow load.


Check your owners manual... GVW, GCVW, and tow rating are different values.
Your Outback is surely rated with PLENTY of margin to tow that 13Scamp.
No worries.


The car's payload number is on the door sticker.

[Anne MP]

Thanks much Floyd! Really appreciate it.

[Jon in AZ]

That is not correct. Tow ratings refer to the total trailer weight, not the axle weight. My Pilot owner’s manual is crystal clear on that point (pp. 438-440).
http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/p...1/ZA1111OM.PDF

Even so, the total trailer weight should not be a problem. Tongue weight might be, especially with a second LP tank, and will require some attention to weight distribution.

No personal experience with an Outback. Lots of folks on the Scamp FB page tow with Outbacks. Some are fully loaded bath models. Most seem happy with their choice, but note that they have to take long grades fairly slowly.

[Anne MP]

Thanks Jon. And how does one weigh the tongue weight to know you have good distribution?



Also, I am reading on other sites that the CTV engine on the Outback is not great for towing, that it can damage the transmission. Have you or others heard that? I have friends who've towed their T@B (1640lbs dry) with their Outback and never had a problem. Of course they havent gone over the Rockies!

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Jon in AZ

That is not correct. Tow ratings refer to the total trailer weight, not the axle weight. My Pilot owner’s manual is crystal clear on that point (pp. 438-440).
http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/p...1/ZA1111OM.PDF

Even so, the total trailer weight should not be a problem. Tongue weight might be, especially with a second LP tank, and will require some attention to weight distribution.

No personal experience with an Outback. Lots of folks on the Scamp FB page tow with Outbacks. Some are fully loaded bath models. Most seem happy with their choice, but note that they have to take long grades fairly slowly.

Point is, tongue weight is payload, which is the only part of the trailer which is part of payload and must be counted as such.

In my post I stated only fact...I did not say that the trailer tow weight was only axle weight as you seem to infer...When measuring GCVW you can't honestly count it twice anyway, so the argument is moot.
On tow rating alone the there is 1120 pounds of margin in this case.

[Jon in AZ]

If you have a sturdy bathroom scale rated for at least 300# you can use that to check tongue weight. You might want to use a small square of plywood under the tongue jack foot to spread out the weight.

CVT’s are gradually becoming more common in tow rated vehicles. Nissan Pathfinder is rated to tow 6000# with a CVT. However, I believe there are some specific instructions in your owner’s manual about climbing long grades while pulling a trailer. From what I have read in the FB posts, folks have tackled the Rockies pulling 13’ers with Outbacks. Take it slow and take breaks.

[Anne MP]

Thanks Jon and Floyd!

[Anne MP]

So, do you subtract the tongue weight from the tow weight of the trailer technically? Again, if the trailer weighs 1580lbs and 180lbs is subtracted then would the weight I have to be aware of towing be 1400lbs approx? That would ease my mind a lot as I want to stay far away from the upper limit of recommended tow capacity.



thanks again

[Jon in AZ]

No. The total weight of the trailer- including the tongue weight- should be compared to the manufacturer's tow rating of the vehicle.

I will personally be surprised if you end up at 2150# for your fully loaded trailer. That's way on the high side for a loaded Scamp 13 (based on our Trailer Weights in the Real World database). If you do, you might want to consider leaving your cast iron cookware at home...LOL!

Seriously, though, since you know you have a limited tow rating and a fairly heavy unloaded weight due to all the options, consider weight as you choose the gear you bring. Plastic dishes, aluminum pots, lightweight storage bins...

But even at 2150# you are well within the 2700# tow rating of your vehicle. The 80% rule (leave a 20% margin in the tow rating) is a commonly cited and much debated rule of thumb. To some extent it depends on the vehicle, towing conditions, and driving style.

[Anne MP]

Hi Jon, ok, so 1580lbs plus 200lbs tongue weigh for 1780lbs? And that’s without us or our gear? How do you see that we won’t get near the 2160lbs 20% safe zone? Maybe you are working it out differently? Just wondering. And I have light weight everything! Plates, cookware, etc! Half the fun is getting simple and figuring this stuff out. The other half is being outside and seeing who happens by... birds, bears, moose...

[Ttocs M]

No problem. I easily tow a 2005 13 ft Scamp Deluxe with a 2002 Outback 3.6 engine. Mountain travel - no problem. I don't even feel the trailer and have to remind myself to slow down on on hwy travel.

I do take precautions - put heavy gear (canned goods, gallons of water, extra camp equipment, tools, steel wheel leveler, firewood, kayak gear) in Outback, kayak on top, keeping heavy stuff over wheels. Clothing, bedding, cooking, etc in Scamp.

I do not fill the trailer water tank, but wait until I get to a campground for a water hookup. If dry camping, I may fill the trailer water tank to half full, for the toilet flush, and bring extra bottled water in car. I do have an extra butane chef's stove with extra sm fuel bottles in camp gear.

I have had only one experience on the longest, steepest, windiest downgrade I've ever experienced... even being down-geared, brakes got a little hot...was glad to be at bottom and vowed never to go on that road again. I also never pull trailer over mtn passes posted for no RV's such as Glacier N.P.'s Route to the Sun.

Enjoy the Scamp and Outback - a great pairing.

[thrifty bill]

Easiest way to measure tongue weight is on your next camp trip, stop at a truck stop. Pull onto their certified scale and get all the weights you need. You will likely have to disconnect and do some addition and subtraction.

I am surprised by the weight you got from the seller. Sounds low to me. My 1977 Trillium weighed 1540 pounds with no air, no bath, and no propane. I still think you will be OK. Running out of payload in your car is one risk depending what you take in the car and passengers.

My guess is seller just got an axle weight or it’s a swag.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by thrifty bill

Easiest way to measure tongue weight is on your next camp trip, stop at a truck stop. Pull onto their certified scale and get all the weights you need. You will likely have to disconnect and do some addition and subtraction.

I am surprised by the weight you got from the seller. Sounds low to me. My 1977 Trillium weighed 1540 pounds with no air, no bath, and no propane. I still think you will be OK. Running out of payload in your car is one risk depending what you take in the car and passengers.

My guess is seller just got an axle weight or it’s a swag.

That's a prefire Scamp... no shower or water heater.
My 2004 Scamp13D leaves the driveway at 1950 pounds with every option Scamp offered and loaded to camp...oak interior extra cabinets, shower, water heater, A/C, Awning, etc.
Let's not forget that the Scamp is unsurpassed in its class for aerodynamics. We achieved 25MPG on our last two trips to Sebring, towing with our Transit Connect 2.5L 4CYL 6spd auto.

[Gilles]

Hello Anne, how are you?
Are you looking to replace your Trillium 13 '?
For the calculation of the weight of the tongue of the trailer, follow the indications indicated on the following link, you will see it is very simple.
In this way you will be sure that the weight of the tongue will not outbalance the electronic system for the motor skills of the four wheels of the Outback, as your dealer had told you with the Trillium Jubilee.
Only to place the items to make sure the weight of the tongue does not exceed 170 lbs, if I remember the numbers you provided me.

https://www.etrailer.com/faq-how-to-...ue-weight.aspx

[Jon in AZ]

Originally Posted by Anne MP

Hi Jon, ok, so 1580lbs plus 200lbs tongue weigh for 1780lbs? And that’s without us or our gear? How do you see that we won’t get near the 2160lbs 20% safe zone? Maybe you are working it out differently? Just wondering. And I have light weight everything! Plates, cookware, etc! Half the fun is getting simple and figuring this stuff out. The other half is being outside and seeing who happens by... birds, bears, moose...

No. I would assume the owner reported weight is the total empty weight. Add your gear to get the final road weight.

[Tony D]

I have a 2014 outback with the 6 cylinder engine and a 5 speed automatic transmission. I went and grabbed my manual to check my memory. Anyway my outback can tow 3000 lbs of trailer. That number includes the tongue weight. The outback has a tongue weight limit of 200 lbs. My outback has a cargo limit of 900 lbs which includes passengers, dogs, equipment and whatever weight is placed on the tongue. The 4 cylinder engine with the continuous variable transmission (aka cvt) has a max total trailer weight of 2,700 lbs. One other interesting note in the manual is a limit on towing on long uphill grades continuously for over 5 miles with an outside temperature of 104 deg F.

So I weighed my 13’ Scamp with bathroom, a/c, heater, hot water tank, 1.9 cu foot fridge, one propane tank and a battery, all loaded up at CAT scales 2 times. Its average weight was 1950 lbs. I also weighed the tongue at home on my bathroom scale and it weighed around 180 lbs both times. No problems pulling my trailer with my outback.

I do have a challenge keeping the tongue weight bellow 200 lbs. I was surprised how heavy the hitch was. The propane and battery are heavy and they are both right there up front. When removed the weight of the trailer falls in line with what the scamp people told me to expect. (It seemed odd that they didn’t include them) I ended up buying a cargo carrier that I hook up to the receiver on the back of my scamp. That helps me push down on the back end a bit to take some weight off the front.

I also need to keep an eye on the cargo weight of the tow vehicle. 900 lbs less tongue weight, people weight, dog weight leaves about 250 lbs for stuff. Definitely manageable, but worth keeping an eye on. My bathroom scale with a piece of plywood notched out to see the gauge gets used when loading for a trip.

[Anne MP]

Thanks to everyone who responded! As it turns out we did not purchase the trailer for a variety of reasons. But wow, did I learn a lot from this conversation that I will use going forward as we search for the next trailer.


I've been used to pulling vintage fiberglass trailers weighing between 1000 and 1300lbs so considering a trailer in the higher range required much more research and knowledge. One thing I learned for sure is that very few owners seem to know the exact weight of their trailer, taking the dry weight as the true number or approximating it and passing that along to buyers. I find that troublesome as its the most basic piece of information we can give each other in selling our trailers responsibly. I know recycling centers/town dumps, moving companies, CAT scales are out there and available to get this information. Maybe they are too far away for most sellers to get to conveniently or at all? Don't mean to sound preachy!



As far as towing with a Subaru Outback, there are two different engines, the 2.5 4-cylinder and the 3.6R. They have different amounts of horsepower but the same towing capacity. I have the 2.5 engine and did not feel comfortable pulling a trailer close to the 15-20% tow margin that is recommended as I cant afford to hurt the transmission. Also, as mentioned above, the manual and the guy at Subaru Company, warned about pulling a trailer up long (5 mile) upgrades and that the torque capacity drops precipitously to under 1400lbs. Of course, everyone makes decisions differently and according to what you feel comfortable with.



all best to the curious researchers and experienced people on this site,
Anne MP

[floyd]

The OP repeatedly mentioned a 15-20% margin below tow rating as being recommended.
Who is this recommender and why does he have more credibility than the SAE, which apparently came up with J2807 as a new and supposedly trustworthy standard.

Now I agree that J2807 clearly has some problems which can not be justified, but apparently, first we could not trust the manufacturers, then we could not trust J2807.
Are we now supposed to trust the "recommender".
If so, I demand that he show himself, justify his variance, and display his credentials!

[Jon in AZ]

Meet Frontal Area. He’s a shy fellow, rarely seen but often felt. He inconveniently observes that J2807 under-specs the physical size of trailer used for testing purposes in every weight category. At speed or against a headwind, the aerodynamic effect of excess frontal area is significant and only partly mitigated by the rounded shape of some molded trailers.

His more gregarious companion is Common Sense, who warns that even a rigorous test like J2807 is standardized and therefore limited. Sooner or later, people who blindly accept its results will encounter conditions- or often a combination of. conditions- that exceed test parameters.

I believe their credentials were earned at the School of Hard Knocks. I met them on the side of I-8 headed into San Diego while waiting for my overheated transmission to cool down.