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Old 10-15-2015, 12:38 PM   #21
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Did a lot of reading on this one, sounds like the WD hitch I have on my traverse does help with tongue weight... ......I am looking at a different tv today and excited that then if I do get an egg, I can prob. even tow it with water on board when going to campgrounds with sulfur (lots of that in our area and I won't put that in my rig!) wish me luck with a great price!
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Old 10-15-2015, 01:20 PM   #22
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Curious... why are you trading the Traverse? It's a nice-sized tow vehicle for a Lil Snoozy or an EggCamper (is that what you're still looking for?) with plenty of passenger and cargo room for a family.
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Old 04-01-2017, 06:42 AM   #23
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Safe to tow?

Just upgraded TV to 2012 Subaru Outback - towing capacity 2700 lbs. Towing a 1979 Trillium Jubliee, GVW 2000. Trialer has electric brakes. Terrain here in NL anything but flat. Should I still be okay? Also, dealer questioned if I had a 2" ball. I do not, it's 1 7/8". Is that standard for the Trillium?

Appreciate the feedback.
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Old 04-01-2017, 09:35 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
Curious... why are you trading the Traverse? It's a nice-sized tow vehicle for a Lil Snoozy or an EggCamper (is that what you're still looking for?) with plenty of passenger and cargo room for a family.
Agree..... The Traverse is an all around capable TV. Wondering if the poster still has it or moved on?
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Old 04-01-2017, 11:20 AM   #25
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Towing Definitions-Understanding Towing weight terms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terranovafox View Post
Just upgraded TV to 2012 Subaru Outback - towing capacity 2700 lbs. Towing a 1979 Trillium Jubliee, GVW 2000. Trialer has electric brakes. Terrain here in NL anything but flat. Should I still be okay? Also, dealer questioned if I had a 2" ball. I do not, it's 1 7/8". Is that standard for the Trillium?



Appreciate the feedback.
I believe a Trillium Jubilee is a 15' trailer, right? That 2000 pounds GVW- it should mean the actual scaled weight of your fully loaded trailer. Is that right? What is your tongue weight, fully loaded?

With a Subaru Outback, the 2700 pound rating is misleading. It has a tongue weight rating of only 200 pounds, which means you are limited to a maximum camping trailer weight of 2000 pounds in order to maintain the recommended 10% minimum tongue weight for stable towing.

If you are really at 2000 pounds loaded, and if the trailer is loaded to have 200 pounds on the tongue, you are where you need to be, but right on the edge.

I believe some Subarus also have a caveat that for long uphill grades in high ambient temperatures, the tow rating is cut in half. That limits where you can take this marginal combination.

As to ball size, the ball on the tug must match the coupler on the trailer, which should be stamped with the ball size. Couplers are sometimes changed to a different size than OEM, so the only way to be sure is to look at the trailer.
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Old 04-01-2017, 01:22 PM   #26
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Many thank, Jon.

The Jubilee is 15' long.

And yes, per spec sheet, the GVW means 2000 lbs fully loaded. Also, per spec sheet, the tongue weight is 110-125 lbs, fully loaded. So there seems to be some wiggle room there.

There are usually 3 of us (2 adults + a teenager) and a dog in the car. We are fairly reasonable in terms of what we bring with us in terms of bulk (food, chairs, clothes, etc). And we do use the car for clothes storage. What I don't understand is how to figure out the car's capacity in relation to the trailer. How much weight can you have in the car yet still tow safely. I believe we are safely under weight in the trailer. I'd say around 1800 lbs.

Paul
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Old 04-01-2017, 03:19 PM   #27
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You have a Trillium spec sheet showing the fully loaded tongue weight?
I'd be interested to see that.

I'd be VERY surprised if the tongue weight of any properly loaded 2000lbs trailer is anywhere in the 110-125 lbs range as you say. A trailer usually requires close to 10% of total weight to be stable, this means around 200lbs for a Jubilee, and I would expect your actual tongue weight closer to 250 lbs.

As for brakes, please get serious here. By mentioning "terrain is anything but flat" you just answered you own question. I don't mean to be rude, but do you seriously expect someone here to tell you "yep, sure, no problem, go ahead" ?
Well, someone may actually come up and say that. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

You trailer already has brakes, now all you need to make your towing experience safer and much more relaxing is a decent brake controller. One of the best deal is Tekonsha's Primus IQ controller, that you can get for about $90 online at Costco.ca or Amazon.ca. You may even be able to install it yourself, only 4 wires to connect (ground, positive, brake signal, brake line).
Note that it's not only a matter of hilly roads: you might have to do a panic stop, and without trailer brakes you will find that 2000 lbs pushing on the back of the Subaru is not too much fun.

You will be towing in hilly terrain with a vehicle that's loaded close to its limit. Please don't push you luck and get those trailer brakes working.
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Old 04-01-2017, 04:08 PM   #28
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Thanks again, Carl.

When Spring finally arrives here I plan to take the trailer to have it weighed (dry). I'd like to go back again and repeat the process after the trailer is loaded.

Before I used the trailer I had electric brakes re-installed, and only yesterday, when I had a new hitch added to my new to me TV, I re-installed the controller that was installed in my last TV. Safety first.

With a little effort, I scraped away paint from the head of the coupler to check for size stamping. I finally found it. 1 7/8" ball. Depending on the results when I weigh the trailer, I may have to upsize.

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Old 04-01-2017, 04:24 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terranovafox View Post
Before I used the trailer I had electric brakes re-installed, and only yesterday, when I had a new hitch added to my new to me TV, I re-installed the controller that was installed in my last TV. Safety first.

Great !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terranovafox View Post
Depending on the results when I weigh the trailer, I may have to upsize.
If I'm not mistaken, I think 1 7/8 balls are usually rated for Class I at the very least, this means 2000 lbs gross trailer weight. So you should be all right. Some 1 7/8 balls even have a Class II (3500 lbs) rating I think. In any case, if you want to be sure of your coupler size, try inserting a 2" ball. You can't fit a 2" ball in a 1 7/8 coupler. So if it goes in, it's 2". The coupler itself should already be rated for the trailer it's installed on, no worries there.

You Jubilee looks very nice!
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Old 04-01-2017, 04:35 PM   #30
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:03 PM   #31
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The GVW on the sticker could mean several things, but one thing it's not is the GVW of your actual, loaded-for-camping trailer.

The only way to really be sure what you've got is to load it up and weigh it. And since you're likely marginal on the weight (especially with the extra passengers and cargo on the vehicle) I would strongly recommended that you do. Get the tongue weight as well.

Beautiful trailer, by the way!
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:44 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl V View Post
As for brakes, please get serious here. By mentioning "terrain is anything but flat" you just answered you own question. I don't mean to be rude, but do you seriously expect someone here to tell you "yep, sure, no problem, go ahead" ?
Your post may be sage advice, but to quote "Larry the Cable Guy"...
"I don't care who you are, That's funny right there!"
Please get serious here...You couldn't expect that response with the rig shown below...
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Old 04-02-2017, 06:16 AM   #33
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I found this exchange rather puzzling. Paul mentioned brakes, so it seemed a safe bet he planned to use them.

In any case, the greater concern in my mind is the rear axle load. With a likely tongue weight near or over the 200 pound rating, combined with the extra passengers and cargo, I suspect the rear axle will be overloaded. Ratings generally assume one or two people and minimal cargo.
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Old 04-02-2017, 09:54 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Terranovafox View Post
Many thank, Jon.

The Jubilee is 15' long.

And yes, per spec sheet, the GVW means 2000 lbs fully loaded. Also, per spec sheet, the tongue weight is 110-125 lbs, fully loaded. So there seems to be some wiggle room there.

There are usually 3 of us (2 adults + a teenager) and a dog in the car. We are fairly reasonable in terms of what we bring with us in terms of bulk (food, chairs, clothes, etc). And we do use the car for clothes storage. What I don't understand is how to figure out the car's capacity in relation to the trailer. How much weight can you have in the car yet still tow safely. I believe we are safely under weight in the trailer. I'd say around 1800 lbs.

Paul
Paul,

I can't speak to the particulars of your Trillium and your tow vehicle operating together, but the 10 to 15% tongue weight "rule" for trailer stability is very generalized.

Starting with the car, its payload capacity has to handle the people, the pooch, and also the trailer's tongue weight. In other words, the trailer's tongue weight "uses up" some of the tow vehicle's allowable payload, just like any other item you load. You can think of the tongue weight as being just like a big sack of concrete carried just behind the rear bumper.

It appears from the 2,700 lb tow capacity that your Subaru has a 2.5 liter 170 HP engine. It looks like 2012 Outbacks have a payload capacity between 1,047 and 1,196 lbs; I'm not sure which figure applies to your model. Your 1,000-plus pounds of payload capacity has to cover all of the above; people, pooch, provisions, and trailer tongue weight.

As regards the 10 to 15% rule of thumb for tongue weight, this relates to the trailer and is substantially independent of the tow vehicle. While it's a general rule and is often cited, it's not always physically necessary. Boat trailers are typically set up with lighter tongue weights. Some of the factors that come in to play include the moment of inertia of the trailer, and also the ratio of the distance between the coupler and the axle as compared to the overall length of the trailer. Here are several links on the subject:

Caravan dynamics

aaTowball Weight and Trailer Stability - February 2017

RV.Net Open Roads Forum: Travel Trailers: Downside to tongue weight over 15%?

http://www.edccorp.com/library/TechRefPdfs/EDC-1081.pdf

Mind you, some of this reading is above my pay grade. However, I have been evaluating it as best I can as I am running calculations on extending the tongue on my Casita and relocating some of the loads in an effort to reduce the tongue weight while maintaining the stability I have enjoyed to date. Lengthening the distance from the coupler to the axle will help maintain stability while simultaneously reducing the tongue weight.

Ultimately, there is a definite relationship between speed and sway; higher speeds induce greater sway. If the trailer is stable and doesn't sway at higher speeds, that's a sign that the tongue weight may be adequate for your particular configuration. I try to carefully test these types of things under favorable conditions so I am not suddenly finding a problem while traveling.
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Old 04-02-2017, 06:40 PM   #35
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Thanks for your post. This will be our 4th year with our Jubilee. We have averaged 1500-1700 kms per year. Last year we pushed into 2300 kms. Sway only a factor 2 or 3 times, and it wasn't limited to speed, only (e.g. cross wind, draft from 18 wheelers). Once we're on the road, we get there when we get there, if at all. Its all an adventure. The destination a goal only. Every trip we say, "We didn't need to bring that." This year I hope to stand buy it.

Look forward to checking out the links. Thanks for your thoughts. Good luck with your modifications. I'm sure they'll be well planned out and tested.

Paul
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Old 04-03-2017, 08:41 AM   #36
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Look forward to checking out the links.
Paul
Be careful you don't look at those links while driving or operating heavy machinery; some of that material can definitely cause drowsiness!
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Old 04-04-2017, 03:22 AM   #37
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Be careful you don't look at those links while driving or operating heavy machinery; some of that material can definitely cause drowsiness! [emoji38]tu
Too funny.... Excellent bedtime reading!!!
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Old 04-15-2017, 04:02 PM   #38
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Be careful you don't look at those links while driving or operating heavy machinery; some of that material can definitely cause drowsiness! [emoji38]tu
Had a good read of the links you supplied (including a good nap, first time through). Reread them again, today (no nap as I was much better rested today). Good reads. In fact, I've shared them with others.

Good luck with your trailer modifications.

Many thanks.
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:21 PM   #39
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Paul,

Thanks for the note. For all that, my review for my situation indicates that I should stay at 17' and add any additional cargo weight to the rear. I basically concluded that the weight of the steel to create the tongue extension was going to add about as much tongue weight as it saves in extending the "lever" which carries the rest of the load.

If my tow vehicle had a higher tongue weight capacity, then adding storage space (and weight) to the A-frame area would be fine. But, I am presently limited to 440 lbs of capacity and I'd like to keep the actual load under 400.

I knew that Casita's were tongue-heavy, but it has actually been a helpful exercise to look at the specific impacts of carrying loads in various locations.

Examples:
  • 10 lbs carried on the rear bumper lightens the tongue weight about 5.1 lbs.
  • 10 lbs carried at to the center of the rear bed / dinette area lightens the tongue about 2.6 lbs.
  • The location centered on the small utensil drawer is right over the wheel spindles, so adds nothing to the tongue weight.
  • 10 lbs in the fridge adds about 2.4 lbs to the tongue weight.
  • 10 lbs in the front bath / closet area adds 6.1 lbs.
  • 10 lbs in the current propane tank location adds about 7.9 lbs.
I am now focusing on changing out the two 20-lb propane tanks on the A-frame for a pair of 11's and carrying bikes on the back.

All said, it looks like I could have just copied Casita Greg's setup and saved myself all this work.
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Old 04-16-2017, 02:58 AM   #40
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Paul,

Thanks for the note. For all that, my review for my situation indicates that I should stay at 17' and add any additional cargo weight to the rear. I basically concluded that the weight of the steel to create the tongue extension was going to add about as much tongue weight as it saves in extending the "lever" which carries the rest of the load.

If my tow vehicle had a higher tongue weight capacity, then adding storage space (and weight) to the A-frame area would be fine. But, I am presently limited to 440 lbs of capacity and I'd like to keep the actual load under 400.

I knew that Casita's were tongue-heavy, but it has actually been a helpful exercise to look at the specific impacts of carrying loads in various locations.

Examples:
  • 10 lbs carried on the rear bumper lightens the tongue weight about 5.1 lbs.
  • 10 lbs carried at to the center of the rear bed / dinette area lightens the tongue about 2.6 lbs.
  • The location centered on the small utensil drawer is right over the wheel spindles, so adds nothing to the tongue weight.
  • 10 lbs in the fridge adds about 2.4 lbs to the tongue weight.
  • 10 lbs in the front bath / closet area adds 6.1 lbs.
  • 10 lbs in the current propane tank location adds about 7.9 lbs.
I am now focusing on changing out the two 20-lb propane tanks on the A-frame for a pair of 11's and carrying bikes on the back.

All said, it looks like I could have just copied Casita Greg's setup and saved myself all this work. [emoji38]tu
Happy Easter ...... and ...... Happy Camping!
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