Towing with FWD V6 vs a Jetta TDI

[honda03842]

The VW 2L gas engine requires premium fuel. Premium averages about 10% more per gallon in the states. Does the VW require premium because of the Turbo?

In our CRV, no turbo, we get 22 mpg towing and 28-30 on the Interstate not towing using regular fuel.

Thanks for all the info. Valuable info for our car shopping

[John McMillin]

You get the most power at the the most boost. Higher octane raises the threshold of predetonation (knock), so you get more power that way. Modern engines are way to clever to let you hear them knocking. They'll gradually detune themselves as you drop octanes, and without a dyno, you'll never know what you lost.

Your Honda's mileage sounds fine, hard to improve on that without going TDI. VW's turbo engines would offer more power, especially in mountain service. These aren't like the turbo engines of the early days-- they peak in torque at 1800 rpm and hold that line level to the redline. You can nurse them along in high gears- our Tiguan loafs along close to 2000 rpm most of the time, giving quiet running with gobs of reserve. These cars have to be fit for autobahn speeds, to sell in their home market. This includes crash safety, where they excel in many tests. VW's approach seems to work- not so many Americans know it, but they're third-biggest maker in the world market, and rising.

Honda and Toyota seems to have mastered the craft of manufacturing cars with few defects and low running costs (though Toyota's stumbled a bit recently). But all modern cars are so improved on the reliability front, so that's not my criterion.

FWIW, the most important reason I buy VWs over other brands is that I fit better in their seats. Somewhere in the design studio closets at Wolfsburg, there's a design dummy of my approximate shape. During two hours at an all-brands auto show, every other brand I sampled besides Subaru had headrests tipped way too far forward for my comfort, in my posture. Sometimes, based on unique criteria, car choice becomes very simple.

[John McMillin]

Go here to check out what's been towed behind VW TDIs. This topic is up to 104 pages now, and still mostly on topic:

Show what you tow! - Page 1 - TDIClub Forums

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by SilverGhost

And most of the GTI owners complained they weren't low enough (compared to the Euro version)

The 1000lb limit is not just DSG - VW does not recommend towing with its cars, only it's SUVs.

I can say though, with the proper hitch, that they tow far more than 1000lb easily.

Jason

That VW USA, not VWag (the actual manufacturer). Without looking it up, I believe the current gen diesels are rated at about 3,400 pounds in Germany. However, lots of people will tell you that physics are different on the other side of the ocean. Or that the VWs they sell here are totally different than the ones they tow with in Europe. Others of us know the truth.

The biggest issue is that the US-style hitches mount to completely different areas on the chassis. If possible, get a Bosal or Westfalia hitch. Yes, they cost more, but they are MUCH better hitches, and they are designed with the factory, not just an aftermarket shop.

[John McMillin]

One difference with Euro trailers -- they have a significantly longer tongue. I don't know the conversion factors or specs, but that's supposed to add stability at lower tongue weights.

[John McMillin]

Speaking of hitch strength issues, mcbrew, I'd like to pose a question. How many of us here have ever had a hitch failure? How did it happen, and why? With what equipment- hitch, car and trailer?

Mechanics have told me that the lightest, cheapest Class I hitches for VWs should only be used for bike racks. Those that bolt to the sheet metal of the wheel well may fail when stressed. My Tiguan's hitch bolts to the rear bumper structure. Looks strong enough for me to trust the manufacturer's tow rating. There is a euromarket hitch design that plugs deep into the unibody for a firmer attachment. I did that for my Audi allroad, at great expense, just before its engine blew and I had to walk away from the car. I wouldn't do that again unless someone shows me several cases of Class II hitches ripping off under the load of 2500 lb trailers.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John McMillin

Well, most small engines need TB jobs at that interval, some sooner.

Originally Posted by John McMillin

My mechanic advised me to avoid the TDI this time, and get the 2.0T gas engine instead. It has a timing chain with no specified service interval...

Good examples of my point. Both some gas engines and some diesel engines have timing belts; other gas engines and other diesel engines have timing chains... reliability and lifespan are not about the fuel type. Even within a brand and engine size, this sort of detail changes - Toyota went to belts for almost everything, but started a changeover back to chains long ago.

[John McMillin]

It's certainly worth checking out the TB costs of any car you intend to keep to high mileage. The cumulative cost must be as much as the added cost of premium over midgrade, but most consumers only worry about the latter difference.

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by John McMillin

Speaking of hitch strength issues, mcbrew, I'd like to pose a question. How many of us here have ever had a hitch failure? How did it happen, and why? With what equipment- hitch, car and trailer?

Mechanics have told me that the lightest, cheapest Class I hitches for VWs should only be used for bike racks. Those that bolt to the sheet metal of the wheel well may fail when stressed. My Tiguan's hitch bolts to the rear bumper structure. Looks strong enough for me to trust the manufacturer's tow rating. There is a euromarket hitch design that plugs deep into the unibody for a firmer attachment. I did that for my Audi allroad, at great expense, just before its engine blew and I had to walk away from the car. I wouldn't do that again unless someone shows me several cases of Class II hitches ripping off under the load of 2500 lb trailers.

I have seen pics of hitch failures on the MK4 Jetta/Golf chassis. Some from trailer towing, some from bike rack use. We have owned a few of these cars, and I have installed hitches on them. They are largely mounted to the thin sheet metal that makes up the spare tire well. One bolt goes through the thicker sheet metal near the tow strap, but still does not inspire confidence.

The Euro hitches install into the unibody frame channels behind the bumper and are quite robust. Towing weight is higher, but tongue weight is not. European towing standards usually recommend 4-5% tongue weight. Keep in mind that they also tend to tow at lower speeds and for shorter distances than we (in the US) do.

While we're on the topic, European trailer and coupler design is quite advanced compared to what we have here. I many countries, they don't even require chains, since the coupling system is so secure. Also, their trailers almost all have rod or cable actuated surge brakes, and feature parking brakes as well.

[honda03842]

John,

I do recognize that VW has won many awards for their tow ability in Europe and is part of the reason that I have been so interested in VWs. However in the end, assuming the vehicle has the ability to tow my trailer, it is the overall reliability and per mile cost that most interests me.

We are one of those rare, these days, single vehcle families and vehicle failure is simply a pain. As well we travel to places where the nearest Honda repair facility or parts source can be a long way off. (This makes a truck a more logical tow vehicle because practically everywhere you can find truck repair facility.)

Being retired, now for 13 years, and really old, cost is important for us. We assume our next tow vehicle will be our last, choosing well is important.

As to the need for premium fuel, there are many places we travel where you run into only a single pump and it is not premium. Of course this is rare, and not vehicle fatal, but it happens in both Canada and the USA.

On our trip to Newfoundland a couple we met from BC were telling us how it was difficult to find diesel on many of the back roads of Newfoundland. Not too surprising, most of the end of the road places do not even have gas stations. Generally we begin our explorations with a full tank.

As to hitch attachment, it is apparent that a hitch can be solidly attached to most vehicles, though some may require more effort than others. As to tongue weight we have a comparitively light tongue, well less than 10%, compared to most on the Trailer Weight list and tow happily and well.

Tow vehicles are usually an explosive subject. This thread has provided a wealth of information for me. Thank you.

[SilverGhost]

I will add one caveat to the 2.0T gas. We have had the timing chain tensioner fail and destroy a few engines recently. I believe it was just a bad batch from a supplier, but they are not bullet proof.

While they work on regular gas, long term use has shown up with some unhappy engines with persistent MIL. Also they like to clog intake ports in the head - you need to do fuel induction cleanings regularly (15k-25k) to keep the ports and valves clean. Otherwise we see them in about 55k miles with misfires and engine stumbles.

And the CR TDI timing belt is/was 120k miles. I have a PD TDI and it is leaps and bounds better than VE or CR TDIs. Once you get past the poor metallurgy problem with their cam shafts (I believe the replacements fixed that) the PD engines make more power, easier, and last just as long. They are also about as tolerant to poor quality diesel and misfiling as the VE. That is a big drawback of the CR is no Bio and no tolerance for gas or crap diesel. Also a lot more emissions crap (think late '70s and early '80s).

All cars will have their own unique issues. Just read up on them and stay ahead of them.

Jason

[SilverGhost]

On the topic of TDI vs SantaFe - I'm going to make a broad statement. Germans and Asians have different outlooks on design and engineering that leads us to the very different vehicles sold here.

Germans are guilty of over engineering a product then requiring very specific maintenance to keep the vehicle in top shape. The trade off is a vehicle that is very rewarding to drive every day. Even so much as looking for excuses to go for a drive.

Germans treat driving like a lot of Americans treat gun owner ship. It is fun, exciting, and the people protect their ability to enjoy it.

Asians (Japanese specifically) engineer a product to do a job, just like an appliance. They tend to do the job and last with minimal maintenance. But then they are not as engaging to drive. They tend to be boring and can be uncomfortable for longer trips.

Japan has inspections that basically require the engine be replaced to pass (as it was explained to me), about every 30k miles. So most people do the least they can to the engine since it will be replaced anyway.

Just my opinions on the differences of the cars involved. And a possible insight as to why some cars get the reputation that they have.

Jason

[MC1]

Originally Posted by SilverGhost

On the topic of TDI vs SantaFe - I'm going to make a broad statement. Germans and Asians have different outlooks on design and engineering that leads us to the very different vehicles sold here.

Germans are guilty of over engineering a product then requiring very specific maintenance to keep the vehicle in top shape. The trade off is a vehicle that is very rewarding to drive every day. Even so much as looking for excuses to go for a drive.

Germans treat driving like a lot of Americans treat gun owner ship. It is fun, exciting, and the people protect their ability to enjoy it.

Asians (Japanese specifically) engineer a product to do a job, just like an appliance. They tend to do the job and last with minimal maintenance. But then they are not as engaging to drive. They tend to be boring and can be uncomfortable for longer trips.

Japan has inspections that basically require the engine be replaced to pass (as it was explained to me), about every 30k miles. So most people do the least they can to the engine since it will be replaced anyway.

Just my opinions on the differences of the cars involved. And a possible insight as to why some cars get the reputation that they have.

Jason

Yes, my thoughts to a T. I really luv the road feel of those German cars but the reliability of the Japan made autos keep me going back.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

However, lots of people will tell you that physics are different on the other side of the ocean. <cut> Others of us know the truth.

Yup some of us do know the TRUTH. Its called PHYSICS! One of the major components of physics is known as SPEED. There appear to be a number of people here who do not realize, that on the other side of the big pond they have set tow limits in most counties that apply across the whole country. Not just on certain roads. Doesn't matter if you are towing on a 5 lane freeway vs a 2 lane road - you cant go over x so many Km/h. Its as simple as that.

Due to physics, even on the Autobahm you can not go over 80 km/h (50 mph) when towing. (edit to add: See Andrews post 75 for regs on obtaining permit to do up to 62 mph) Try selling that concept to the boys in Montana or Texas

Originally Posted by Night Sailor

Norm and Ginny are the experts at minimalism in towing and tow vehicles. Anything they recommend for you is a good idea.

Yup and if you were to read their travel logs and read what their towing practises actually are you will discover that they prefer to take it slow and dont go over 55 mph for most of the miles they have put on their set up. It would appear that they know as well as anyone that speed is a major component of physics and safe towing with their set up.


There are a few things one can bank on each and every time this topic comes up:

1) The same handful of folks are going to show up and recommend that one ignores the towing specifications set by the vehicle manufacturer in the country of purchase on the vehicle being discussed. The fact that many of the Go For It folks rarely contribute to any other topic is seen as internet Trolling by many.


2) At least one plug for Can-Am services will get tossed into the discussion.

3) Someone will claim they know the vehicle in question has the exactly the same components as the one built in another country.

4) The "Go For It" crowed with repeatable ignore the polite requests of others to not go down this road with the discussion as its become very clear over the years that the majority here dont feel its in the best interest of this list.

5) None of the "Go For It" or "It should be OK" folks will be opening up their wallets to help with the payment of legal fees or vehicle repairs should their recommendation be wrong.

I really wish that I could predict the stock market as well as I can predict how a thread such as this is going to go each and every time. If I could it would be my nice new shiny Escape I would be currently packing up for Bandon rather than my 22 year old Scamp.

[Andrew Gibbens]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Due to physics, even on the Autobahm you can not go over 80 km/h (50 mph) when towing.

The Germans do love their unlimited speeds on certain autobahns, so you can imagine they don't like a 50mph (80km/hr) towing limit - and in fact they do have a 62mph (100 km/hr) limit available.

For those interested in the technicalities, this web page (in English!) from one of the German testing agencies is informative. Note that one requirement to get the higher speed limit (for any decent trailer weight) is to have hydraulic shock absorbers (dampers) on the trailer.

The "suitable coupling with stabilising device" is a Yurpeen-only anti-sway system where the coupler includes two friction pucks that clamp onto the tow ball - this works fine in Yurp where bolt-on towballs are not used, so it doesn't unscrew the towball nut!

100kmh approval - Checks and inspections | TÜV NORD

[Carol H]

Andrew correct me if I am wrong but isnt one of the requirements of obtaining the special permit to go over the 80 km is also that the trailer can not exceed the manufactures towing specifications as it appears in the vehicle's manual or stamped on the hitch? and that is what the police can/will be checked normally regardless of special permit or not?

[Andrew Gibbens]

Absolutely - this is Germany where excommunication and/or burning at the stake is the minimum penalty for doing anything with a vehicle that the manufacturer has not specifically approved.

Towing within both the manufacturer's towing capacity and max hitch weight is definitely included. But of course that is the Yurpeen towing capacity which is so much higher than the North American one for most vehicles.

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Carol H

Yup someone of us do know the TRUTH. Its called PHYSICS! One of the major components of physics is known as SPEED. There appear to be a number of people here who do not realize, that on the other side of the big pond they have set tow limits in most counties that apply across the whole country. Not just on certain roads. Doesn't matter if you are towing on a 5 lane freeway vs a 2 lane road - you cant go over x so many Km/h. Its as simple as that.

Right.. Which is why I mentioned that in my post.

[Night Sailor]

Originally Posted by John McMillin

There are a few special considerations with the current TDIs. First, they require timing belt and water pump changes at 100k miles (a figure that I seem to hit with startling frequency). Expect to pay about $1200, more at a dealer.

Second, diesel fuel filters are more costly (on my older '20 TDI, that was about $80 every 25k miles).

Third, perhaps most worryingly, a significant number of owners have experienced sudden failure of the High Pressure Fuel Pump, with destructive metal shrapnel spread throughout the injection system. So far, dealers have replaced this at VW's expense, even beyond the warranty period, but there's concern this may not continue at higher mileage. Dealer's invoice for the job runs around $8,000, believe it or not.

The older ALH TDI engine (1998-2004) I owned in my two cars was considered most reliable, though dirtier. Each car lost their fuel pumps at 160,000 miles, but it was a simple replacement costing about $1600 each to fix. The "pump deuse" engines in Jettas and Beetles from 2004-2006 are reviled by my VW mechanic, and best avoided.

On the plus side, you'll never need a spark plug or a coilpack. The other thing to consider is resale value. VW TDIs sell new for about $3000 more than gassers, but they retain that premium value at high mileages. I just sold a 10-year-old Beetle TDI to a guy who flew from out of state, paying $4700. He wasn't worried about the 200,000 miles on the odometer. Why do diesel engines last longer? Maybe because we expect that, so we maintain them better..

You can find all knowledge about VW diesel engines at tdiclub.com. The two forums should share more info. They often have questions about towing.

These figures are for dealer pricing. They change water pumps while changing belts because these labor costs are so high. Not because a pump needs to be changed. If I did the job, I'd just change the belt or use an after market pump.

I do much of my work myself and use an independent mechanic otherwise who allows me to provide my non-oem parts. This drops cost low. Also many people do not follow recommended maintenance intervals and this caused problems.

However you make a great point that some years are to be avoided and other are far better. And a wise person would thoroughly research which years provide the easiest maintenance, best reliability and best fuel economy. Likewise some models are know for their reliability. My Silverado has needed very little maintenance. I make an effort to change the fluids. It is cheaper to flush transmission oil than to replace a transmission. For some things I use a dealer rather than a Jiffy Lube and service by a high school drop out.

Diesels generally last longer because they have larger bearing surfaces to handle the less than perfect detonation timing. Diesel run better when hotter because detonation occur at more regilar intervals.

More significantly, diesel fuel itself is a lubricant. I also now add an additive lubricant to my fuel which boost my fuel economy 10%. Opti-Lube XPD. My last four tanks have yielded a 10% improvement over my best without the additive and it generally runs more like 15% above my former average. I wish I had a TDI to try it in.
Not available for gas engines


On any event, I bet a TDI that ran Opti-Lube from day one would extend those failures out to double those mileage figures.

Diesels are a great choice for many people. However if you overall goal is cost, there may be better options--you do the math. Be sure to include resale value as that negates much if the purchase price.

One reason I like them because the fuel does not explode. I've seen people burn to death. I saw a car that caught fire in the engine bays roving on Rt 128. When they pulled over, the tank cooked off and blew into the interior engulfing them in flames. Another friend had to put his children in the water when his boat caught on fire.

I like diesel most for the high mpg and range also. While finding diesel can be a problem, I solve that with larger fuel tanks, or multiple fuel tanks. That is an added expense I gladly make because I hold onto cars for long time. I'll admit I'm at the extreme on this, but I have been stuck unable to find fuel and preventing that is worth any price. If we have another fuel crunch. I'll be the one motoring past you.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gibbens

100kmh approval - Checks and inspections | TÜV NORD

Excellent link, Andrew

If someone wants to check the compliance for Tempo 100 of a typical 13' egg when towed by a Hyundai Santa Fe FWD and by a Jetta TDI, that would be informative. Otherwise, I'm unsure of the relevance of towing speeds in Europe to the topic.


As an irrelevant aside of my own, I am amused to note that since I added shocks to my Boler, the only thing that keeps my rig from being "Tempo 100" legal is the age of my tires. Good, since I routinely tow at 100 km/h.