VW Jetta

[honda03842]

This is a link to CAN AM RVs longterm test of a 2006 VW diesel Jetta. They use it to tow what we would consider large trailers from the factory to their RV dealership. Great reliability and mileage.

RV Lifestyle - Hitch Hints

[idiotsniff]

we have been considering one for a long time. I hear the newer 2009 and up to the current ones get about 1000km -1100km to a tank with mostly city driving? two people we know say thats the mileage they are getting? not sure how true. but they seem like the way to go to me. wish more cars had diesel in them like Europe.

[BCDave]

Just remember that Dodge also advertises a thousand miles to a tank with a pickup truck. The secret is that it has a huge tank - about a hundred gallons or so!!

[idiotsniff]

the Jetta has a 55L or 14.5Gal tank. our 09 Corolla has about the same. 50L if i recall. ours gets about 5-600km to a tank. much better fuel milage on the jetta I'm afraid.

[Tim Wood]

Thanks for the link Norm these little cars have peaked my interest. I use to have one of the old diesel rabbits back in the 70's. But I'm thinking these newer ones are a better engine.

[MCDenny]

It is interesting to contrast the "Hitch Hints" articles with other discussions here about towing capacity.

The Hitch Hints guy runs a very large RV dealership in Toronto and has lots of experience towing personally and via his customers. He notes in the article referenced above setting up over 600 Ford Freestar and Windstar vehicles! There are many Hitch Hint articles available on their website. I read some of them and they frequently mention towing 2 or 3 times the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tow weight. Again, in the story above, he talks about towing a 28' trailer with an additional 800 pounds of parts inside (maybe 5500#) with a Diesel Jetta having a 1000# max trailer weight spec in the USA.

I read another article where he described towing a 34' Airstream with a Ford Taurus SHO (1000# tow limit).

The guy sure sounds like he knows what he is talking about but then there are plenty of "advice givers" here and on other internet fora who opine absolutely not to go over the mfr max tow weight spec, others say don't go over 80% of that, etc.

What gives?

[honda03842]

Denny,

Like you I've read most of his hints at CAN AM. He certainly takes opposite positions from many posters on towing requirements and tow vehicle possibilities.

I'm personally impressed with his articles and if I were a newbie to RVing I would start by reading his articles. If I were anywhere near their dealership I would go to them for tow vehicle advice and setup.

You always hear and read bad things about RV dealerships with respect to towing. These people certainly seem to make good recomendations and perform good first order tests.

It's clearly obvious that CAN AM uses what many would consider undersized tow vehicles to successfully tow trailers larger than most on this site own.

There's an amazing amount of tow info on that site. From the posting here I think it's an under read and under used source of information.

[Robin G]

Originally Posted by MCDenny

"advice givers"
What gives?

There are! You seem to be one as well, and giving, advocating, inproper towing is just plain wrong! There are guide lines and laws in this country that say, your thinking is wrong...................
Just because there are those of us that don't agree with your way of thinking it makes us advice givers? Really, look in the mirror!



I for one hate this subject post and cringe everytime it's posted.

I never remember saying it couldn't happen. There might be "advice givers" who have. But believe me when I say I have done and seen things that shouldn't/couldn't happen. I know that a vehicle that has a tow rating of 1000 pounds can tow much more weight. But my question you all of you "Advice Giver's" is should it?

I refuse to let a subject that could hurt someone go without the other side of the opinion. There are so many other issues to consider other than can it do it! There are many a story of people hurt, killed because of improper towing. Just because you choose to ignore the guide lines and laws of the road in this country doesn't make it right!


And as brought up a bazillion times, What does your insurance co say? Don't tell me they say it's ok....... I know better!





And I have a real issue with someone who is supose to be a forum moderator always being one of those that advocates improper towing. Have you ever thought about the liability of your advocating such an issue. Or the liability to the forum? Shouldn't be coming out of the mouth of a moderator (though you are very good at sending Pm's to people when you disagree with this subject) So not posting it for everyone to see, I am sure will not stop you from saying it's ok to do it!

Number one, you have know idea who your advocating it to. You have know idea of a person's experience! Many a experienced driver (towing) has had issues! Just because you haven't had an issue yet doesn't make it right.......




Hell, I can drink and drive ( I choose not to) but just because I can does not make it right!

So in ending of my advice giving I am gonna post a warning to all who read this.


Can a vehicle that has a low tow capacity, tow much more weight! Probabaly, but should it? Probabaly not, and my recomendation is to read all you can about your vehicles capabilities and read and understand the guide lines and laws. Also understand the people giving you information contrary to such laws and guidelines perhaps don't know everything.
As you may not have towing experience, keep in mind "advice givers" who tell you to go against such law's and guidelines may not have much experience either. They don't consider such things as wheel base (control of what your towing) They don't consider what towing something over your tow capacity does to your vehicle! And they don't take into consideration what it could cost when you hurt/kill and distroy someones life!

[Robin G]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Denny,



I'm personally impressed with his articles and if I were a newbie to RVing I would start by reading his articles. If I were anywhere near their dealership I would go to them for tow vehicle advice and setup.

You always hear and read bad things about RV dealerships with respect to towing. These people certainly seem to make good recomendations and perform good first order tests.

.

Oh my God, REALLY? The two towing improperly issues I know of happened because of recommendations from "dealers" In both, the dealer's told the buyers that their vehicles could tow over tow capacity and in both incidents people were killed. There certainly may be a dealer here and there that know's what they are talking about. But let's not forget that most dealerships employ salespeople. Many of whom have never towed a thing..............

So again, just because you found someone who agree's with your thinking does not make it right............................................. ..




And a FYI, The dealer here in CO was held liable for the child that was killed when they recommened that that the buyer's tow vehicle was big enough to tow the trailer they sold them..

[honda03842]

Robin G.

I've suggested that people read the CAN AM site to increase their information base. I would say that anyone who reads their site has to come away knowing they gained information. There's so much good information on that site no matter your beliefs on tow vhicles, to not read because some thoughts may be opposite to your's, mine or anyone's, is to be opposed to gaining knowledge.

One does not have to be an agreement with a position to learn from it. The magic of humanity and the Internet is to learn from others without having to personally and directly experience.

By the way, CAN AM has a good discussion on wheel base and every characteriestic of a two vehicle

RV Lifestyle - Hitch Hints

As to breaking manufacturer's tow capacity suggestions, those recomendations are not set in law and in some measure seem arbitrary.

I should have been more careful with the following quote. By "These people" I was refering to CAN AM and not all dealerships.

"You always hear and read bad things about RV dealerships with respect to towing. These people certainly seem to make good recomendations and perform good first order tests."


I hope you did not mean in the following quote that CAN AM agrees with my tow vehicle choice or I need their agreement. "So again, just because you found someone who agree's with your thinking does not make it right."

I obviously don't need people to agree with my thinking, I'm more independent than needing other's agreement. I post what we do and how we do it, partially because it's different from what many do on this site. I believe it's important for people to see that there are "other ways" to successfully RV.

There are 50 articles in their Hitch Hints section and all worth reading. For many it's hard to find information and this site is about information. No one has to agree with any of CAN AM's articles. It's simply a source of info, read and make more informed choices. The following is a link to all their hitch and towing articles.

RV Lifestyle - Hitch Hints & Wagon Masters

Good, thoughtful reading to all. Life is a series of choices, make the best choices you can.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Robin G.

As to breaking manufacturer's tow capacity suggestions, those recomendations are not set in law and in some measure seem arbitrary.

I have mentioned this before although B-P will for sure disagree but on Vancouver Island every summer they put up safety check points on the main highway - they are most likely to pull over to check the weights of pick up trucks with campers on the back and pulling a boat trailer, as many of them are way over the manufactures load specs. They will in fact check to see if your over the manufactures load capacity. Its a fact - been there done that! There is actually a bit of a standing joke on the Island - if you ask a fisherman loading up his camper and boat for a trip why they havent purchased the beer for the trip yet you are likely to be told that its the item that will mostly likely put them over their load capacity and result in them having to dump their boat off at a road side check & having to go back for it later after taking the camper off the truck, better to buy the beer at the destination! I find it hard to believe that is the only place in NA that happens.

The other import point that some considering towing over their tow vehicle caps IMHO needs to give serious consideration to is should you have an accident and someone is hurt and the accident investigator attributes all or part of the cause to towing over you vehicles specs you could find yourself in a personal liability legal battle. When it comes to those types of cases, judges have a lot more freedom in their judgement making and the deciding factor as to your liability & they will take into consideration a lot more than whether or not there was a written law forbidding it. As has been suggested you might want to check with your insurance company as to whether or not they will in fact cover you should you be found at fault in such a situation.

[Cam A]

Originally Posted by Robin G

There are! You seem to be one as well, and giving, advocating, inproper towing is just plain wrong! There are guide lines and laws in this country that say, your thinking is wrong...................
Just because there are those of us that don't agree with your way of thinking it makes us advice givers? Really, look in the mirror!



I for one hate this subject post and cringe everytime it's posted.

I never remember saying it couldn't happen. There might be "advice givers" who have. But believe me when I say I have done and seen things that shouldn't/couldn't happen. I know that a vehicle that has a tow rating of 1000 pounds can tow much more weight. But my question you all of you "Advice Giver's" is should it?

I refuse to let a subject that could hurt someone go without the other side of the opinion. There are so many other issues to consider other than can it do it! There are many a story of people hurt, killed because of improper towing. Just because you choose to ignore the guide lines and laws of the road in this country doesn't make it right!


And as brought up a bazillion times, What does your insurance co say? Don't tell me they say it's ok....... I know better!





And I have a real issue with someone who is supose to be a forum moderator always being one of those that advocates improper towing. Have you ever thought about the liability of your advocating such an issue. Or the liability to the forum? Shouldn't be coming out of the mouth of a moderator (though you are very good at sending Pm's to people when you disagree with this subject) So not posting it for everyone to see, I am sure will not stop you from saying it's ok to do it!

Number one, you have know idea who your advocating it to. You have know idea of a person's experience! Many a experienced driver (towing) has had issues! Just because you haven't had an issue yet doesn't make it right.......




Hell, I can drink and drive ( I choose not to) but just because I can does not make it right!

So in ending of my advice giving I am gonna post a warning to all who read this.


Can a vehicle that has a low tow capacity, tow much more weight! Probabaly, but should it? Probabaly not, and my recomendation is to read all you can about your vehicles capabilities and read and understand the guide lines and laws. Also understand the people giving you information contrary to such laws and guidelines perhaps don't know everything.
As you may not have towing experience, keep in mind "advice givers" who tell you to go against such law's and guidelines may not have much experience either. They don't consider such things as wheel base (control of what your towing) They don't consider what towing something over your tow capacity does to your vehicle! And they don't take into consideration what it could cost when you hurt/kill and distroy someones life!

No need to shout.

[Robin G]

Norm, I truely believe that information is the best advocate. And since there is more information out there saying that towing over the tow capacity of a tow vehicle is not a good idea. I will go with that! When you spew that it can be done, not all information is given. Just, "It works for me, so give it a try.
Not all things have been considered and yet it's ok? Really? Do you ever think of all that goes into it?


Again, I am not saying it can't be done, BUT, should it? In my opinion is shouldn't.

And advocating otherwise is in my opinon Law of Negligence!

I don't give a hoot that someone chooses not to even consider their vehicle as far as frame, drive train etc. I care because I know that even with the best towing scenario things can go wrong. So towing with a improper set up to start with is just wrong.

All things considered there should be a standard of information here on the forum that is neutral as far as advice given. Follow the rules of the road, not what you can get away with. Again, many people drink and drive and actually get away with it. Dosen't make it right!

[Robin G]

Originally Posted by Cam A

No need to shout.

Not intending to "shout" just trying to get a point across for the bazillionth time!

[MCDenny]

Robin,


I'm not suggesting anything to anybody and in fact I don't tow over my vehicle's weight spec.

I'm only pointing out a seemingly reliable source who has set up probably thousands of TV/Trailer rigs well over the mfr's tow specs. I doubt they would still doing that if a) their customers were unhappy with the outcome or b) they were getting sued due to overweight towing.

CanAm RV's experience plus the much higher tow limits of vehicles sold in Europe does suggest US tow specs come from the manufacturer's legal or marketing departments as much as the engineering department.

Whether or not there are legal issues I have no idea, it probably depends on local law. I've never heard of weight checks in the US as Carol describes in BC.

I skimmed over my car ins policy and found no language about safe trailer towing. It just says any trailer I own is covered up to a certain $ limit. I did have an accident while towing a trailer several years ago. The adjuster never even asked how much the trailer weighed or what my TV's tow capacity was.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by MCDenny

CanAm RV's experience plus the much higher tow limits of vehicles sold in Europe does suggest US tow specs come from the manufacturer's legal or marketing departments as much as the engineering department.

yup its a good bet they are being set by the manufactures legal department who I have no doubt attend law school and have pretty good idea as to what can happen in legal liability case. Why anyone would challenge that experience and factual knowledge is a puzzle to me.

The topic of Europe cars having higher tow weight caps has been well covered as has the fact that you should not and can not assume that the car in Europe even though it looks the same on the outside and has the same name on it - has all the same components that the car sold in NA does. I can tell you that without a doubt that the Outback is a classic example of that. The Outback sold in NA does not have all the same components as the European model on the underside that you dont see.....

[ruscal]

The balance between fuel economy and safety is what we are all faced with. Obviously a heavier tow vehicle will be less affected by the trailers forces during evasive maneuvers. Most heaver vehicles will handle the tongue weight better, have a stronger attachment point for the hitch, and have a stronger driveline. The lighter the tow vehicle the more the safety envelope is pushed. If one chooses to push the envelope to the limit he is taking on more risk. Driving style and skill can make up for some of the risk, but physics is physics.
I am in the market for a new tow vehicle, as my Jeep Wrangler pushes the envelope in some areas. It has the weight, around 4400 lbs., and can handle several hundred pounds of tongue weight, but is extremely short wheel based, and lifted about 4” above factory height. In the towing I have done so far it handled very well, and seemed very stable. I have not been on a freeway where semis were passing at much greater speed in the rain yet, so don’t know whether they would cause swerving. The Jeep gets poor mileage anyway, and is underpowered with the 4.0L I-6.
I won’t be looking for the ultimate mileage TV, as most of my trips are short. I can choose something more middle of the road size wise. People who do extended trips, putting on many miles may tend to choose a lighter vehicle for economy. Pushing the extreme too far won’t pay off though, as one accident will eat up all the gas money savings, and could kill somebody.
A construction company that I worked for had old travel trailers that were used as job offices. While towing one to a job one day with a half-ton long bed pickup he was passed by a semi going around 60mph. The job trailer was only going about 25mph having just stopped for a red light. The semi sucked the trailer into its lane and spun it around along with the tow vehicle and threw it into a bridge abutment totaling the trailer and truck. The man pulling the job trailer was not hurt, just shaken up. He said it happened so fast he couldn’t even react. There was nothing higher than the frame left on that stick built travel trailer! Kegs of nails and trailer fragments were strewn all over the highway closing highway 101 for over an hour.
I want to be able to keep up with those trucks, so will have to settle for less mpg.
Russ

[Andrew Gibbens]

Originally Posted by Carol H

if you ask a fisherman loading up his camper and boat for a trip why they havent purchased the beer for the trip yet you are likely to be told that its the item that will mostly likely put them over their load capacity and result in them having to dump their boat off at a road side check & having to go back for it later after taking the camper off the truck, better to buy the beer at the destination!

I appreciate this is a serious discussion (not to say argument), but you may want to see this 1980s advert that I think you will find relevant:

CASTLEMAINE XXXX Sherry Ad 1986 - YouTube

[BCDave]

There have been several cases lately - including one very BIG one in California where someone was killed and the cause was found to be a person towing in an unsafe manner. The rig in question exceeded the gross COMBINED weight rating assigned by the tug's manufacturer. The result (currently under appeal, last time I checked) was a verdict such that the driver of the over-capacity rig was found guilty, and faces up to to 20 years in prison. The family of the person killed was awarded in excess of a million dollars in damages in the subsequent civil suit.

Let me be very clear on this. I am NOT a lawyer, and even if I were one, my views would not likely be considered to be binding - BUT

If a car/truck manufacturer says the maximum tow capacity is "X" and you exceed that, you do so at your own risk and your own peril. Your insurance company will move heaven and earth to get out of paying claims.

When giving advice to people on "Can I/Should I tow THIS with THAT", there are also other factors to be taken into account such as
What is this person's driving experience?
What is this person's TOWING experience?"
What condition is "THAT" proposed tow vehicle in?
Under what conditions will this person be towing ?

The fact that a member of this site has consistently broken laws with impunity for many years may very well be a testament to their skills and experience as a driver, (or sheer, dumb luck!) and has nothing to do with any safe/unsafe practice.

Just because there are people who have towed in excess of their tug's capacity does not mean that it should be advocated. I cringe when I see advice given on here that amounts to "Don't worry about what other people consider to be safe practice, I've been towing WAY in excess of my tug's legal max for "xx" years.

True, but I do notice there is a sad lack of contrarian views from those who have been killed doing it!

Same thing applies to discussions about using trailer brakes.

SO: Here is my view - directly opposed to yours:
In selecting a tow vehicle/trailer combination for safety ALL of the following MUST apply (no exceptions)

The wheel base of the tug must exceed the distance from the hitch ball to the axle of the trailer (front axle in case of multi-axles) AND
The tug must weigh a minimum of the weight of the trailer AND
In no case should the trailer exceed the manufacturers towing rating AND
In no case may gross combined weights be exceeded AND
All trailers in excess of 500 lb MUST be equipped with functioning brakes AND
All trailer brakes MUST have fully-functioning breakaway packages

YES, I realize that part of the function of this site is to encourage the use and enjoyment of Fiberglass RVs and that promoting their preservation makes it possible for all of us to continue to be able to find parts, service and sources of modifications as seen fit.

HOWEVER, this "duty" must be balanced with an appropriate degree of caution in the promotion of them.

Let's make up an example:
"Hi - my name is John and this is my wife Jane and I am18 years old and she is also 18. We have a child on the way. I just got my driving license last week and I bought a rusty 1982 Honda Civic with 300,000 miles on it. Jane and I want to go to the mountains for a vacation, so I want to buy a Casita 16 footer that I see for sale locally. Can I tow it? Will I need to install brakes?"

Based on what I have seen in terms of advice, there would be a dozen or so versions of "Welcome to FGRV" and "You will LOVE your Casita" and "While you are in the mountains, be sure to stop at xxx"

Poor John & Jane will then be on their own in terms of the advisability of their proposed course of action. They will read this forum, use a search function and determine that it seems to be entirely possible to take that car, hitch it to that trailer, and that brakes may or not be needed, and so because money is tight.... . After a while someone will say "Whatever happened to John & Jane" and a moderator will note that they don't seem to be on here any more - last activity was 2 years ago.

Perhaps some one on here will note a picture of the horrible crash on highway XX and lament the loss of a perfectly good FG trailer.

Meanwhile, Norm and others will continue to advocate Toys R Us as a suitable place to obtain a tow vehicle for pulling a 25 foot Bigfoot through the mountains.

If I were the owner of this site, I would take pains to ensure that moderators did, in fact, always take a moderate view and promote a moderate course of action, and further that moderators instantly jump in to delete (or disavow) any messages which may be conceived to promote or condone potentially unsafe practices.

Instead, I now find that one who habitually condones such practices IS a moderator.

So - a couple of observations:
I belong to several sites on various topics such as Fifty 5,6 & 7 Chevys, F100 Fords, hotrods in general, Volvo 1800's, Modified Round-fendered Volvos , Diesel pickups, full size pickups, and GM pickups. This is the ONLY site where moderators are not identified . Every other site has the word "moderator" after the person's name.

A moderator speaks for the site. If a moderator condones potentially unsafe practices, then, as the "voice of authority" it may be said that the site condones such practices.

One of the sites I belong to was recently involved in a lawsuit. The owner of the site was being sued for an 8 figure amount, because a member posted something that an outside party considered to be harmful and moderators failed to step in and censor (or disavow) the messages. Thus it was said that the site condoned the viewpoint. While the suit was ultimately unsuccessful, (not because it was without merit, but because one of the litigants went bankrupt) it was the various lawyers for both sides who were the real winners.

Norm - you maintain that towing a trailer the size and weight of yours, with your Honda is perfectly safe. You say so over and over. Is it safe for the hypothetical "John & Jane" ? Are you willing to categorically say so? Does this site's owner agree?

Inquiring minds want to know......

[floyd]

If Oversized Tow vehicles were the only safe ones, then there would be no use for a Scamp 13, which was designed for reasonable sized vehicles.

There would also be no use for those "bulgefivers" with umpteen slideouts which are designed to be pulled by the heavier pickups.

A smart car with a Scamp 13 would be more favorable than a one ton pickup with a 35ft fiver... if comparative weight were the only consideration!
[BCDave;
You are generally prone to give good advice, but I must caution you against being drawn in to shrill hyperbole... Trust me, I've been there, but only truly enjoyed it on rare occasions!]

The thread is about the the Jetta though, and some people have misjudged it's capacity as a truck.....

A little common sense might eliminate some of the more extreme positions taken on the subject....from either end of the spectrum.