What "Small Car" can really tow a Scamp?

[honda03842]

Before we bought our first trailer, we towed the Honda CRV behind our motorhome. It's manual transmission made it a perfect tow'ed' vehicle for the motorhome and since it was in the shadow of the motorhome had hardly any affect on mileage.

When we wanted to go to Labrador we bought a 15.5 Sunline 25 year old Sunline because it was inexpensive, (Scamp) light and most important thought we could successfully tow with it. We thought we'd only use it for the 2 month trip to Labrador. It turned out we liked trailering and have spent the next four years doing it.

The Honda is our only vehicle. I recognized one real reason for towing with it. Over it's life, it will save us about $14,000 in fuel over the typical truck, more than half it's cost.

Norm

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Andy B

The Impreza is Subaru's small car and the tow rating on that is zero, it is not supposed to tow at all.

Except in the magical United Kingdom, where the 2.0 liter Impreza with manual transmission is rated to tow 3,520 pounds! I'm sure the US model has some tiny difference in the suspension that reduces the 3,520 pound rating to zero. Or maybe it's the color.

[mcbrew]

FYI, Ford Fiesta in the UK also has super powers: With 1.6 liter gasoline engine it can tow up to 3,366 pounds (braked trailer). Just another car that gets super-wimpy on this side of the Atlantic. It's like the US is made of towing kryptonite!

[Frederick L. Simson]

Originally Posted by Carol H

We seem to see this topic come up a lot and I’m always left wondering how people actually know that to be true? Is there anyone here who works at an import manufactures testing faculty or engineering department that can confirm this?

Tow Ratings Finally Pass the Sniff Test - The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) - Automobile Magazine Apparently there IS a standard, called "The SAE's Surface Vehicle Recommended Practice J2807" that defines the tests a vehicle must pass at a claimed Tow Rating.

[honda03842]

I wonder if any 18 wheeler could pass the Davis Dam run with those specs. I also doubt that very few of us have ever seen a 12% grade, much less would park on one. (We did do one 18& grade in Labrador; it feels funny in your gut.)

Norm

[Andy B]

The quote was "All three size Scamps have been designed to be towed by small cars, SUVs, mini vans, and trucks."

This is the claim on the Scamp web site. The three sizes that Scamp makes are 13 foot, 16 foot and 19 foot 5th wheel. The claim is that all three sizes can be towed by small cars.

What small car could tow a 19 foot 5th wheel trailer? Maybe one of those small cars with the European tow ratings could do it with a hitch on the roof.

In the United Kingdom, since the 2.0 liter Impreza with manual transmission is rated to tow 3,520 pounds, it could tow the 19 foot 5th wheel and the 13 foot Scamp at the same time and still carry 320 pounds of camping gear in the trailer.

The Ford Fiesta in the UK with 1.6 liter gasoline engine it can tow up to 3,366 pounds, so it could tow the Scamp 19 foot 5th wheel and the 13 foot Scamp at the same time and still carry 166 pounds of camping gear in the trailer.

The UK tow capacities do not sound safe to me.

[AndyGee]

[QUOTE=Carol H;258726][QUOTE=Mike Magee;258714
AndyGee said "North American" auto mfrs, so I think he means companies like Ford, GM, Chrysler... not the "imports" (although some of those are built here with a surprising level of U.S. content). "

Actually most so called imports such as Subaru, Toyota, Honda, Mazada are all built in the USA or Canada they do not import the cars so I consider them to be NA mfrs.[/QUOTE]

Subaru, Toyota, Honda and Mazda are not North American or American there are held/ owned by corporations based in Japan. Likewise for BMW, Mercedes and Audi are owned by Corporations based in Germany. Chrysler is no longer American being that it is owned by Fiat a corporation based in Italy. Just like when Victor/RCA sold off Victor to a Japanese company and became JVC / Japan Victor Company and you would not say your TV is Chinese/ Malasian or where its assemble it is Japanese because the home office of JVC is in Japan.
And as for Ford and GM I have relatives who work for both and some in engineering and they do not test cars for tow capacity they only test vehicles that they consider utility/commercial type vehicles ie. mini vans and some crossovers and up. They do test cars for the European market because many of the European contries demand that rating be backed by an independant test the manufacturers don't test they contract a non biased third party. Testing costs a great deal of money and the manufacturers will only do so when forced. The costs can get out of control as every country/market can set their own standards and methodology for testing and therefore a different test would need to be done many times over for the same spec of automobile so it is simpler to say don't tow with model X or have a ridiculously low rating of 1000lbs. I remember when the rule of thumb for towing was for the trailer not to excede 1/2 of the tow vehicle's total wheight and if you did then trailer brakes were required, that was it that was the standard and is still the law in most provinces but with a max trailer wheight caveat thrown in there.

[AndyGee]

Originally Posted by Andy B

The quote was "All three size Scamps have been designed to be towed by small cars, SUVs, mini vans, and trucks."

This is the claim on the Scamp web site. The three sizes that Scamp makes are 13 foot, 16 foot and 19 foot 5th wheel. The claim is that all three sizes can be towed by small cars.

What small car could tow a 19 foot 5th wheel trailer? Maybe one of those small cars with the European tow ratings could do it with a hitch on the roof.

In the United Kingdom, since the 2.0 liter Impreza with manual transmission is rated to tow 3,520 pounds, it could tow the 19 foot 5th wheel and the 13 foot Scamp at the same time and still carry 320 pounds of camping gear in the trailer.

The Ford Fiesta in the UK with 1.6 liter gasoline engine it can tow up to 3,366 pounds, so it could tow the Scamp 19 foot 5th wheel and the 13 foot Scamp at the same time and still carry 166 pounds of camping gear in the trailer.

The UK tow capacities do not sound safe to me.

Ha HA! I'd like to see a Fiesta with a 5th wheel bolted to the roof. You might be a red neck if....

[honda03842]

Ha HA! I'd like to see a Fiesta with a 5th wheel bolted to the roof. You might be a red neck if....

There's a rather famous you tube video of a VW bug, one of those 40 HP ones, towing a fifth wheel. The hitch was attached to the center of the roof. Interestingly you could turn the car around and drive it into your site using first gear without disconnecting instead of backing it in.

Generally what ever we think is new (and maybe not possible) is doable and probably being done.

Norm

[ScottG]

I have pulled a uhaul ct 13 with a honda civic coupe. I have had no trouble at all pulling it. I quess it just depends you have to use judgement. when i was in the mountains i saw a mini cooper with a tab behind it.

Originally Posted by Pam Garlow

Taken verbatim from the Scamp website is the following statement:

"Towable by Small Cars - Our small campers are very economical; especially important with today’s high fuel costs. All three size Scamps have been designed to be towed by small cars, SUVs, mini vans, and trucks. The aerodynamic design assures high fuel efficiency and most people can tow the Scamp with a vehicle they already own

It bothers me to read in this statement that a 'small car' can tow a Scamp. Are there really any 'small cars' out there that are actually rated to tow one?

[paulw]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gibbens

I may be becoming a parrot, as I keep repeating this same post, on this subject.

I'm not suggesting that European towing ratings are applicable to North America but if anyone thinks of using them, they should remember two factors:

- In Europe tow speeds are often limited to 50mph by law, although most countries allow caravans (travel trailers) up to 60mph under certain conditions - for example, in Germany those conditions include dampers on the trailer suspension.

- Those European towing ratings do not allow for North American levels of tongue weight - the maximum tongue weight may be as low as 4% of the rating. Often the North American tongue weight (say, 10-15% of a lower trailer weight) and the European tongue weight (say, 4-7% of a higher trailer weight) end up about the same.

Thanks for chiming in again Andrew.
I hate reading these threads, but I can't seem to look away...
When I do, I always wonder that those folks that like to quote European tow ratings never seem to want to engage you in the discussion.

[mcbrew]

I am engaging in the conversation. I follow the manufacturers testing (European ratings), for both trailer weight and tongue weight... as well as European-style speed restrictions.

Please tell me how I can better engage in this conversation, other than just saying you are right and I am wrong.

[honda03842]

This thread about the use of small tow vehicles is interesting to many people, particularly considering the economy and the rising cost of RVing. Here we should be telling our experiences and referencing facts when necessary.

Many of us that tow with small vehicles do it for a number of reasons, like we own the vehicle, it's a very reliable vehicle and/or it gets very good mileage towing.

The following is not ment to be argumentative but rather to provide perspective.

I've been towing with our Honda CRV for four years. Our trailer weighs about half our tow vehicle, while a Ford F150 can tow a trailer that weighs TWICE the weight of the F150. Which vehicle is more likely to be pushed around by their trailer? Hopefully neither. Our's definitely doesn't.

Our tow vehicle, towing our Scamp 16 has more torque and hp per pound of tow vehicle and trailer then a F150 towing it's maximum load.

Nothing is simple, everything needs to be viewed from the other guy's perspective. My Dad told me that you always need to put yourself in the other guy's position and not come to any discussion rigidly attached to a single position.

Relating experience, referencing fact when possible is advantageous to all of us and what makes this a great site.

Norm

[Mr. W.]

Originally Posted by Andy B

It does not bother me if someone wants to tow more than the tow rating for their car. However when it is repeatedly talked about in an internet discussion group in very positive terms, that is indirectly promoting that others can do it too and someone may eventually get hurt.

Well, it bothers me. Towing beyond capacity may cause you to cease being a vehicle and instead become a projectile. I really do NOT like the idea that the other vehicles around me on the road (particularly the oncoming ones or the ones directly behind me) are in significantly less control than they think they are.

The problem here is that we have official ratings, determined by people who are paid to do so, and we are comparing them with anecdotal information -- "I've always done it and never had a problem".

As I mentioned earlier, I had towed a trailer that is HALF my towing capacity for thousands of miles, not only without incident, but without a hint of trouble. I was hundreds of pounds under my rated need for trailer brakes. However, when the conditions were right (or wrong), I found myself sliding helplessly toward an intersection. Without the trailer, I might possibly still have skid some, due to the moisture and hill, but my stopping distance would have been much, much shorter.

I used to find myself in the camp of "the vehicle is more capable that the manufacturer lets on". However, after that experience, I can no longer glibly say that the tow capacity is understated. Towing dramatically changes the road dynamics of any vehicle, and how those changes will affect real-world safety is extremely difficult to project, particulary at the limits. The closer we get to those limits, or beyond them, the more unpredictable it becomes.

We ASSUME that because it's OK in Europe, it should be OK here. We ASSUME that their roadways, laws and driving habits are sufficiently like ours to make an apples-to-apples comparison. We ASSUME that the tongue weight and axle placement on European trailers doesn't invalidate the tow ratings for our use here in the USA. We ASSUME that our insurance company is of a European persuasion and thinks that car manufacturers here in the USA are trying to spoil the fun that is our birthright.

But, we don't KNOW that. We are pitting our own judgement and skill against the judgement of the manufacturer. But, how many of us are really qualified to make that kind of judgement? We may say that we drive carefully and increase our following distances, and that is all well and good, but the truth is that if that was all it takes, there would never be any accidents. Accidents are, after all, accidents. Somebody or something unexpectedly violated somebody else's space buffer. I can't prevent somebody else from doing that to me, so the question becomes, "How well can I safely execute emergency avoidance maneuvers?" And, then, if things go wrong anyway, how likely am I to get slapped with a negligence lawsuit?

Yes, you have the right to decide, to a point, how much risk you are willing to assume for yourself. Do you really think you have the right to decide how much risk everybody else has to assume on your behalf?

[Mr. W.]

By the way, I think that there is no question that car companies in the USA are dumbing down the tow ratings. My point is that we don't and can't know by how much, and we, as consumers, don't have the information to make a good determination. Seat-o-the-pants doesn't cut it. And, in case somebody does get hurt, do you think the courts and insurance companies will lend more credence to the printed documentation, or to your stories of how well it always worked before?

[Andrew Gibbens]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Except in the magical United Kingdom, where the 2.0 liter Impreza with manual transmission is rated to tow 3,520 pounds!

And it is a good example of a point I was making. Subaru UK say the maximum nose weight (hitch weight, that is) is 165 pounds. That's just under 5% of the maximum trailer weight, a very low percentage by US standards. That means the speed at which trailer sway becomes a problem is lower than the speed that US-style 10-15% hitch weights allow.

[Scott H]

None of the vehicles in question are meant to tow. My buddy tows his mastercraft ski boat/dual axel trailer with a big ass Dodge diesel truck; 26mpg, 25.5mpg while in tow. I'd make the switch myself if it weren't for that crappy Italian quality!

[mcbrew]

Originally Posted by Paul E Henning

I think that there is no question that car companies in the USA are dumbing down the tow ratings. My point is that we don't and can't know by how much, and we, as consumers, don't have the information to make a good determination.

Sure we do. You look at what the MANUFACTURER rates the car to tow, based on real-world testing (as is required in many European countries), then subtract from that the amount that the US subsidiary of that car company rates the car for (not based on real-world testing) and then you have the answer to how much the rating is dumbed down.

I am not assuming that my car can tow more than the MANUFACTURER's rating. I tow LESS than the MANUFACTURER's rating. My car is made in Japan, but the US importer (Toyota Motor Sales USA) totally drops the tow rating to ZERO. They also say that the car is incapable of hauling a bicycle on the back. Too bad, because there is a bicycle on the back as I type! I hope the bicycle doesn't push my car around... or overcome the braking power of my car... thereby turning my car into an uncontrollable missile on the highway.

As mentioned a few threads prior, anecdotal information is not always reliable. Then the person went on to give us some anecdotal information... so I will, too. On average, I tow with my car about twice a week. More than 10% of my driving includes a trailer in tow. My car has about 65,000 miles on it, and I figure I have had a trailer in tow for at least 8,000 of those miles. This is not an exaggeration. I have a pretty good feel for how my car handles with a trailer in tow. I have had to brake pretty hard and avoid things like deer, idiot drivers, and debris in the road. NEVER has the trailer or car been out of control. Yes, and car, with or without a trailer, can be made to lose control. Can my car handle as well with a trailer than it can without? Of course not. No car or truck can. Can it stop as fast with the trailer? Nope. Again, no car or truck can. Is my car/trailer combo any more of a hazard than the average driver out there? I put it to you that it is not.

I will not drive a pickup truck, because they are wasteful and inherently dangerous vehicles. Most SUVs have the same attributes. YES, I'm one of those people who smirks at all of the pickup truck drivers... thinking that most of them have NO need for that kind of vehicle, and knowing that that most of them think they are SO safe in a BIG vehicle like that. I'm tired of not mentioning it, because many of the people on this forum are not holding back on how they feel about me towing with a small, efficient, safe car.

[Mr. W.]

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Sure we do. You look at what the MANUFACTURER rates the car to tow, based on real-world testing (as is required in many European countries), then subtract from that the amount that the US subsidiary of that car company rates the car for (not based on real-world testing) and then you have the answer to how much the rating is dumbed down.

I am not assuming that my car can tow more than the MANUFACTURER's rating. I tow LESS than the MANUFACTURER's rating. My car is made in Japan, but the US importer (Toyota Motor Sales USA) totally drops the tow rating to ZERO. They also say that the car is incapable of hauling a bicycle on the back. Too bad, because there is a bicycle on the back as I type! I hope the bicycle doesn't push my car around... or overcome the braking power of my car... thereby turning my car into an uncontrollable missile on the highway.

As mentioned a few threads prior, anecdotal information is not always reliable. Then the person went on to give us some anecdotal information... so I will, too. On average, I tow with my car about twice a week. More than 10% of my driving includes a trailer in tow. My car has about 65,000 miles on it, and I figure I have had a trailer in tow for at least 8,000 of those miles. This is not an exaggeration. I have a pretty good feel for how my car handles with a trailer in tow. I have had to brake pretty hard and avoid things like deer, idiot drivers, and debris in the road. NEVER has the trailer or car been out of control. Yes, and car, with or without a trailer, can be made to lose control. Can my car handle as well with a trailer than it can without? Of course not. No car or truck can. Can it stop as fast with the trailer? Nope. Again, no car or truck can. Is my car/trailer combo any more of a hazard than the average driver out there? I put it to you that it is not.

I will not drive a pickup truck, because they are wasteful and inherently dangerous vehicles. Most SUVs have the same attributes. YES, I'm one of those people who smirks at all of the pickup truck drivers... thinking that most of them have NO need for that kind of vehicle, and knowing that that most of them think they are SO safe in a BIG vehicle like that. I'm tired of not mentioning it, because many of the people on this forum are not holding back on how they feel about me towing with a small, efficient, safe car.

To beat on a very beaten horse, we cannot assume that because a car is built in Japan, or wherever, that it is the same as the one sold in Europe. They build them to the spec for the country it is going to. It has been a huge effort for companies to try to build a "world car", because different countries require such different specs, and some of them are mutually exclusive. Our cars here may have different brakes, different suspension tuning, different tires, and on and on. Just because the engine and transmission can pull it doesn't mean the car can safely tow it.

I recall watching a car driving down the highway with two bikes mounted on a hitch-mount bike rack. The bouncing of the bikes had fatigued the metal that the hitch was bolted to, the hitch had sagged, and the two bikes were just dragging down the road. Yet, I am pretty certain the driver "had never had any trouble after doing it for years."

I also drive a small car -- a 2001 Chevy Prizm, rated to tow 1500 pounds. I tow a teardrop that weighs 750 lbs loaded. I have towed, for a short distance and at low speed, 2600 lbs (the garden center overloaded me - I asked for 1000 lbs and they loaded over a ton. Looking back, I should have made them unload it). I can tell you definitively that to use that car to tow a 16' Scamp, even empty, at anything approaching highway speeds, would be insane. I have owned trucks, but prefer small, efficient cars. I have sought to size my trailer to be appropriate for the car I choose to use.

[Scott H]

So Jesse, I don't have a horse in this race; my tug is not ideal by any means, but.... A pick-up being wasteful and dangerous?! As stated before, my buddys gigantic Dodge gets 26mpg, and I'd bet that the over/under on it in any collision blows what ever you're driving out of the water!