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06-30-2013, 11:15 AM
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#1
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Senior Member
Name: Derek
Trailer: 1973 boler 13', Earlton On
Ontario
Posts: 396
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When the Tail wags the dog
Here are a couple of short youtube videos. In both cases, the video gets a little more "interesting" if you give it patience and watch the whole thing.
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06-30-2013, 11:16 AM
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#2
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Senior Member
Name: Derek
Trailer: 1973 boler 13', Earlton On
Ontario
Posts: 396
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Fish Tailing on Cavan Bypass - YouTube
Edit: I dont know why I cant get this video to imbed into the posting. At least the link works...
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06-30-2013, 11:17 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
Name: Derek
Trailer: 1973 boler 13', Earlton On
Ontario
Posts: 396
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These are both enough to fill your underpants from the safety of your own computer.
Have you ever survived an event like this?
What comes to mind when you watch these videos?
The driver in video number 2 comments about there being a "rim problem." Lets speculate - whats the problem he was seeing?
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06-30-2013, 11:23 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glamourpets
......Lets speculate - whats the problem he was seeing?
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The people in the second video are driving on the wrong dang side of the road!
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06-30-2013, 11:35 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Name: Derek
Trailer: 1973 boler 13', Earlton On
Ontario
Posts: 396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas G.
The people in the second video are driving on the wrong dang side of the road!
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I didn't realize driving on the "wrong side" would cause fish tailing.
I think this video is filmed near Cavan Ireland.
Derek
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06-30-2013, 11:44 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glamourpets
I didn't realize driving on the "wrong side" would cause fish tailing.
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It does if you are trying to drive on the right side of the road and have to keep swerving to avoid these idiots.
Quote:
I think this video is filmed near Cavan Ireland.
Derek
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That's no excuse.
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06-30-2013, 12:15 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Name: Wayne
Trailer: Airstream Sold, Nest Fan
Ontario
Posts: 2,002
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Nasty stuff!
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06-30-2013, 01:37 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glamourpets
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This is your link:
Code:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FDqiR1wOAg8
I took out the extra "feature" argument ("feature=player_detailpage&").
The result of the edited-down version is an embedded player:
__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
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06-30-2013, 01:43 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glamourpets
What comes to mind when you watch these videos?
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I have only watched the first video. In that one, the rig has some of the characteristics which some people assure us are the path to safe and stable towing: long wheelbase, full-sized truck with rear-wheel drive, beam axle, and leaf springs, towing a much smaller trailer with tandem axles. Those are likely even ST tires, although of course I don't know.
Rule-of-thumb judgements don't always lead to sound rigs.
__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
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06-30-2013, 01:56 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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In the Irish video, the swaying seems to start on a brake application, though maybe the driver hit the brakes in reaction to feeling the sway start. Brakes seem to be on thorough out the subsequent loss of control.
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06-30-2013, 02:25 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Name: Derek
Trailer: 1973 boler 13', Earlton On
Ontario
Posts: 396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
I have only watched the first video. In that one, the rig has some of the characteristics which some people assure us are the path to safe and stable towing: long wheelbase, full-sized truck with rear-wheel drive, beam axle, and leaf springs, towing a much smaller trailer with tandem axles. Those are likely even ST tires, although of course I don't know.
Rule-of-thumb judgements don't always lead to sound rigs.
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Most of your comments apply to both videos. It really does look like good choices were made in terms of tow vehicles. The second trailer is larger though. Perhaps this wouldn't have happened if he had a sway control device.
Derek
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06-30-2013, 02:55 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
... the first video.
... towing a much smaller trailer with tandem axles.
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Since I realized the implications of tandem axles, I have not been a fan. In the video, the suspension doesn't seem to have much travel, which is typical of small trailers. The axles likely don't equalize load very well, if at all, so the distribution of load between the axles and the tongue weight depends strongly on hitch height.
If the hitch is too high, load shifts to the trailing axle, tongue weight goes up, and in the extreme the trailer becomes essentially a single-axle trailer with the axle too far back. This is hard on the tug and trailing axle and tires, but at least it is stable. Go the other direction, with the hitch too low, and load shifts to the leading axle, tongue weight goes down, and in the extreme the trailer becomes a single with the axle right under the middle... and a stability problem.
The equipment trailer in the video is very short, so it would be very sensitive to hitch height, which might be low on that van. With only a few feet from ball to axles, a few inches of hitch height error could make a big difference... and short is not good for stabilty anyway.
__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
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06-30-2013, 03:06 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glamourpets
The second trailer is larger though. Perhaps this wouldn't have happened if he had a sway control device.
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Perhaps... but perhaps that rig had a sway control device.
A Euro sway control device is typically a special coupler which contains friction pads which clamp down on the ball, so you need to see the coupler pretty clearly to determine whether it is an anti-sway type or not. I couldn't tell, and I'm not on the device or network at the moment to watch it again or look closely.
__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
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06-30-2013, 03:07 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Name: Cyndi
Trailer: 2010 Scamp 5th Wheel/2019 Toyota Tundra
Iowa
Posts: 1,105
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Well, the Irish do have problems driving sometimes.
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06-30-2013, 05:54 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
Name: Derek
Trailer: 1973 boler 13', Earlton On
Ontario
Posts: 396
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Here is another fishtail video.
This time I think its more obvious whats going wrong. I suggest that the trailer is heavier than the tow vehicle. I also suggest that the balance point of the load is too far back so that the tongue weight is very low. The low tongue weight probably was necessary for the car because it probably has a low maximum tongue weight capacity. At the same time, the tongue weight was probably too low for the load they were pulling. Thoughts?
Derek
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06-30-2013, 06:26 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Name: Cyndi
Trailer: 2010 Scamp 5th Wheel/2019 Toyota Tundra
Iowa
Posts: 1,105
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They were probably driving on the wrong side of the road again and not Irish.
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06-30-2013, 06:59 PM
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#17
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Senior Member
Name: Wayne
Trailer: Airstream Sold, Nest Fan
Ontario
Posts: 2,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glamourpets
Here is another fishtail video.
This time I think its more obvious whats going wrong. I suggest that the trailer is heavier than the tow vehicle.
Derek
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A wise man once wrote: When everything about the combination is wrong then a large, heavy TV will be of benefit.
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07-02-2013, 08:51 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC1
A wise man once wrote: When everything about the combination is wrong then a large, heavy TV will be of benefit.
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...but not necessarily enough benefit, as we discussed regarding the first video. It helps, of course.
__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
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07-02-2013, 09:22 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Trailer: Boler (B1700RGH) 1979
Posts: 5,002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glamourpets
Here is another fishtail video.
...
This time I think its more obvious whats going wrong. I suggest that the trailer is heavier than the tow vehicle.
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Sure, but trucks and SUVs tow loads much heavier than themselves routinely. I drove a 300 kilometre (200 mile) highway trip yesterday and my guess is that the majority of the trailers were travel trailers heavier (and longer, and wider) than the tugs (it was a holiday weekend here).
Quote:
Originally Posted by glamourpets
I also suggest that the balance point of the load is too far back so that the tongue weight is very low. The low tongue weight probably was necessary for the car because it probably has a low maximum tongue weight capacity. At the same time, the tongue weight was probably too low for the load they were pulling.
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I agree that the centre of mass is quite close to the axles, so the tongue weight would be low; it might be zero (which would never be acceptable regardless of other factors). My guess is that this is more significant than the relative mass of tug and trailer.
Tongue weight is far from the only factor affecting stability. The same trailer, with the same tongue weight, would be substantially more stable with a longer tongue, for instance. The mass distribution is largely at the ends of the load (causing higher polar moment of inertia and thus less stability compared to a travel trailer of the same length and mass), but there's not much that can be done about that.
Compared to good car transporters of this size for small tugs - and this is not one - the unusual feature is that the car is far too high and the trailer track too narrow, because it is a "highboy" configuration (deck over the wheels) instead of the more common and appropriate design with the deck down between the trailer wheels. If it starts swaying it will rock and exaggerate the problem. It looks like someone didn't have the right trailer, was too cheap to rent one, and used something like a snowmobile trailer... but that's just my impression.
Again, I note that this is one of those "more stable" tandem-axle trailers.
__________________
1979 Boler B1700RGH, pulled by 2004 Toyota Sienna LE 2WD
Information is good. Lack of information is not so good, but misinformation is much worse. Check facts, and apply common sense liberally.
STATUS: No longer active in forum.
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07-02-2013, 10:10 PM
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#20
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Senior Member
Name: Jason
Trailer: Egg Camper
Tennessee
Posts: 329
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Did anyone notice the car on the trailer was sliding back and forth? Apparently the tie downs were not properly secured and that allowed the the car to become a pendulum, exasperating the sway of the trailer.
Jason
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