Cashless national parks

[skalywag]

John, beautiful pictures. I am jealous.
BTW, how did you pay that 5 bucks ?

Cheers

[Jon Vermilye]

My favorite image from Devils Tower:

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

i filled my truck at an unmanned credit only station in San Diego during peak gas prices a few weeks ago, and the station had a $75 limit and about $5.70/gallon, it took THREE swipes of my card, two I had to approve via a text message before my 38 gallon diesel tank was full.

This is becoming a larger problem with the increase in gas prices. I went into a Golden Gate station recently and, as usual, had to pay the increased price for using a credit card. $100. limit didn't get me filled up, and the machine would not allow me to swipe again, so I went inside to try it at the counter. That worked, but there was a 35 cents "transaction fee" tacked on. So, it took two tries, a walk into the store, a raised per gallon price for credit and a transaction fee, just to get filled up. I vowed never to return. My favorite station, just a mile or two away allows me to fill first and then go pay any way I want to with no upcharge for credit.

Another interesting glitch is that "regular" gas here in Nevada is different than regular gas in Utah. 87 here, and 85 there. So, to get the same 87 I want, I have to get "Mid Grade" at a higher price.

It's funny how, over time, $100. bills are becoming more common and less valuable. But at the same time harder to use. 100s are the new 20s.

I just got back from Baja and they will commonly accept dollars, pesos or US credit cards. All the same price. All stations are full service and they will happily wash the windshield. Tipping the attendant is common, but not required. The price of pesos per liter calcs out to be about $3.75 / gallon and is stable. There is no need to price shop at different stations as they are all the same price in a given area. Pemex, Arco and Chevron with 87 and 91 octane. Diesel too.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Raz

The campground is run by a concessioneer, a private party, To get a site you call another private party, in this case recreation.gov currently run by Booz Allen Hamilton, and pay a fee on top of the site cost. And to pay you use a credit card administered by a third private party. Instead of the park service running the operation they have turned it over to the private sector. And they save money by shifting the cost to you. And to add insult to injury, they tell you how much better it is. The fact that they won't take cash is a side effect of having to go off site to make a payment to a private party. Personally, I'm a big fan of the iron ranger.

Last year Grand Teton went the same route, at the suggestion of the concessioneer. Outerbanks the year before. Many state park systems aswell. It appears this is fine with most people so best get used to it.

Precisely!
It can still be a great experience (if you can afford it)
I'm glad I toured many of the National Parks/Monuments as long ago as the 70's.
Now, I mostly just follow the sun an look for good bicycling.
We do have our Senior Pass which is a great help and we even got it when it was $10.
Love COE campgrounds they seem to always be well run, clean, and in great spots.

[AC0GV]

Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye

My favorite image from Devils Tower:

It looks like this is turning into a picture thread. I used this picture in my Scamp calendar this year and sent copies to both the KOA and WY state senator Driskill (his family owns the KOA). The maintenance man at KOA has a picture of the butte getting hit by lightning.



https://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/...ture15139.html

[Raz]

Originally Posted by floyd

Love COE campgrounds they seem to always be well run, clean, and in great spots.

Not all of them. I spent a night in a COE camp ground on the Mississippi in your home state. The train came through every 20 minutes.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by skalywag

John, beautiful pictures. I am jealous.
BTW, how did you pay that 5 bucks ?

Cheers

i actually used the reservations website while I still had cell connections (and paid a $6 service fee on top of the $5), but there was an iron ranger at the campground entrance.

[floyd]

Originally Posted by Raz

Not all of them. I spent a night in a COE camp ground on the Mississippi in your home state. The train came through every 20 minutes.

Thompson or maybe Fisherman's Corner?

But Hey! I didn't say quiet!

[Raz]

Originally Posted by floyd

Thompson or maybe Fisherman's Corner?

But Hey! I didn't say quiet!

I don't recall the name but crossing the tracks to get to the campground should have been a big hint. And of course the crossing required the horn. The place was about half full. Some had been there a while so I guess they got used to it.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

We have camped in the park several times.

In 1997 we took the Boy Scout troop there for a couple nights. They had a lot of fun. The rest of the trip was filled with close encounters of the _________ kind.

In 2017 Rita took one at this site that made the Escape calendar. I didn’t have time to drive to Wyoming this afternoon but was able to get my elk fix at Pinicon Ridge park near Central City, Iowa

The one mile or so walk around the base of the Tower. Is enjoyable especially early in the day. Take a water along. Don’t miss the prairie dogs near the entrance.
Iowa Dave

Or the climbers up and down the tower.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by Raz

The campground is run by a concessioneer, a private party, To get a site you call another private party, in this case recreation.gov currently run by Booz Allen Hamilton, and pay a fee on top of the site cost. And to pay you use a credit card administered by a third private party. Instead of the park service running the operation they have turned it over to the private sector. And they save money by shifting the cost to you. And to add insult to injury, they tell you how much better it is. The fact that they won't take cash is a side effect of having to go off site to make a payment to a private party. Personally, I'm a big fan of the iron ranger.

Last year Grand Teton went the same route, at the suggestion of the concessioneer. Outerbanks the year before. Many state park systems aswell. It appears this is fine with most people so best get used to it.

Having been an employee of the NPS for 30 years before retirement I have a strong opinion of the policy, and it’s not favorable. This is too close to politics, but I will say I saw our staff decimated to contracting out to mixed results. The in house projects were generally done with higher quality and cheaper. Cashless does present a problem for people who don’t have credit cards and I disagree with this policy strongly. The poor rangers who staff entrance stations will bear the brunt of public anger who show up and can’t get in with cash in hand. I’ll bet they’ll be some waving through. I would encourage everyone to get a senior pass or a yearly pass for entrance fees however.

[AC0GV]

Originally Posted by oldwave

Or the climbers up and down the tower.

There were 6 or 7 on the tower the day I was there. There is a telescope on the south side but this was a hand held camera shot. The locals will tell you stories of flashlights on the tower at night. (Not legal, but who is going to go up and write them a ticket?)

[Iowa Dave]

I was in the visitor center in the summer of 1996. A Ranger had just given a little talk in the equipment the climbers use. When she was done I saw her put a cardboard box of the stuff she used in her talk under the counter on the floor. The next year we were there with the Boy Scouts on a high adventure. There were some climbers on the Tower. One of the boys asked me how mountain climbing “worked”. Although I had a fair understanding, I was not good at explaining the process. I said “come with me.” We went into the visitor center and there was a Ranger behind the counter. I asked “Do you still have that box of climbing gear behind the counter?” She got the box out, let them handle the components and explained their functions. They were appreciative and attentive, we thanked her and went on our way. I’ve always had a high regard for park rangers, especially in teaching situations. She certainly did not disappoint.
Later the same boys asked me “How did you know she would have that stuff behind the counter?”
I told them “Everything doesn’t have to change all the time, that’s just what you’re used to.”
Both are Eagle Scouts and doing well 25 years later.
Iowa Dave

[Jimmy J]

The bigger problem is that at most all federal campgrounds nowadays, one must have a paid for reservation before arriving. At all the ACoE campgrounds we have visited the past year, the host has been unable to check anyone in. There will be one of those little square barcode things on the window of the kiosk that you scan with your smart phone. It will connect you to Rec.gov, and if that doesn't work because you still have a flip phone, their number is prominently displayed. The host at a nearby corp park said they don't even have a data network, anymore. He receives confirmation of your reservation on his smart phone within minutes of your choosing a site, and making a reservation for the night, or nights.

[RogerDat]

Privatization is a loaded topic. It has lots of arguments for and against. Even the service fee is I believe an attempt to make the "cost" of the service a line item that is not buried in the overall reservation cost.

In IT there is a lot of push to outsource infrastructure and services. We see it in the school systems too. School bus service is often privatized around here. It works to reduce costs but often by reducing services or shifting to a lower paid workforce which tends to turn over.

Automation "saves" costs but generally by replacing experienced people who provided a value not always recognized. Our professional rangers are such an asset as are the people who come in on seasonal or part time positions in order to start down the career path of working in the park system.

The idea of private industry can save enough to provide as-good or better service with enough savings to allow for a profit is not always realized. On the other hand I'm sure it is realized in some circumstances. There has also been a long gradual shift to "user fees" as opposed to supporting some things from the general tax base.

Things change, usage of parks has increased a great deal. Boomers retiring I expect may have something to do with that. We sometimes fail to consider what is lost in implementing solutions that we hope will solve some new problem or resolve some situation. Park Service running own IT services vs outsourcing to a for profit service might be a good example.

Increased capacity and use by providing a reservation system on par with what customers expect from online shopping. With a corresponding loss of human resources available in the parks. I do miss being able to call a park, ask some questions and make a reservation. I do like the pictures we have of sites in our online reservation system.

I hate the speed test at midnight or 8 am trying to get a site 6 months in advance. Tells me I'm going to be sure to have lots of company in my camping experience. Possibly traffic issues :-(

Seems to me all the state parks now require a "state pass" that is fairly expensive if not purchased by a state resident. In Mich. you pay $10 when you renew your license plate OR $27 at the gate for a pass before adding your nightly site fee. Makes it so commercial parks are competitive especially for overnight stays while traveling. I have found city parks can be great for overnight. Generally less cost and sufficient amenities for an overnight stay. Cash or debit it has gotten more expensive for sure.

[Iowa Dave]

Well written and you have covered many of the privatization issues. Your comment regarding talking with a Ranger or a person with genuine knowledge of conditions where a camper would like to visit and appreciate knowing what to expect was spot on from my experience as a park management professional for over 32 years and a camper for well over 50 years. “By the way, there are quite a few rattlesnakes there so if you have a dog you should be aware of that.”

No state pass in Iowa yet. Probably coming eventually but a strong county park system keeps them in check.

Iowa Dave

[computerspook]

Originally Posted by floyd

Its a National Monument for cryin' out loud, can't they even read what is printed right on the cash that they authorized?


"THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER
FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE"


Oh well at least they will still honor the senior pass.



Bad enough when a private business scoffs at the obligation, but the government rejecting its own standards.


They claim to streamline the process but really they are just cutting private banks in for a piece of the action.

That could make for an interesting legal action. Now the labeling on our bills has no legal standing regarding corporations and people, BUT with regards to the government it does. And it does at all levels including the federal government. If you offer valid US currency for a dept to a government agency (Which would include the national parks) then the debt is voided. But that would probably involve going to court.

Now they can place reasonable limitations on that with regards to where it can happen. Like one state park put the limitation a few years ago where the law was tested that only one of their three gates would take cash. They also can place some additional burden on a user of cash, such as you have to go do the main office (local) and pay and then get a slip of paper saying you have paid and then give that to an agent of the organization at a location which also directly takes cash. Our county does this for some things where you can directly pay a few at an office or you can go to the courthouse and pay it with cash and then go to the office.

About time we made this the law for private people too.

[AlanKilian]

Originally Posted by computerspook

About time we made this the law for private people too.

We disagree about how much the federal government should intrude on private affairs between two people.

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by Alex Adams

Unfortunately, the cost of handling cash just keeps going up due to insurance, salaries, etc. Since the government forced the credit card companies to reduce their exorbitant transaction fees a number of years ago and the explosion of third party processors for credit/debit card transactions, the cost of processing credit/debit cards has dropped. They are just doing the math as are a lot of other big entities. I swear I've seen a couple of places that charged extra for paying with cash.

I frequent a restaurant in my area that is totally cashless. Reason? They were robbed three times within two weeks. I spoke with the manager. They went cashless not because of the worry at losing money, but having cash on the premises was putting their employees and customers at physical risk. Makes total sense and I can see where a number of other restaurants, etc. may very well do the same for the same reason.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

Well written and you have covered many of the privatization issues. Your comment regarding talking with a Ranger or a person with genuine knowledge of conditions where a camper would like to visit and appreciate knowing what to expect was spot on from my experience as a park management professional for over 32 years and a camper for well over 50 years. “By the way, there are quite a few rattlesnakes there so if you have a dog you should be aware of that.”

No state pass in Iowa yet. Probably coming eventually but a strong county park system keeps them in check.

Iowa Dave

Lots of rattlers out there, Agate Fossil Bed has quite a crop. I can say that from experience.