Oliver vs Escape Price Difference

[BigDan]

Originally Posted by justa25thTA

Full disclosure, I am an electrical engineer and find the entire EV world quite fascinating. The biggest issue I see (beside overall electrical grid capacity) is the charging times for any and all EV's. If they can ever get those down to more typical gas tank filling times, they will be onto something.

Physicist turned software/electrical engineer here. I work with an EE who has been an EV obsessive for years, he’s my go-to resource.

On charging there are 10 minute charging technologies that haven’t been released yet, but it doesn’t really matter. Maybe you don’t have an EV? When you get your first EV you’ll find it doesn’t matter.

The vast majority of your driving is locally from your house, and everybody charges at home over night. No more gas stations! So big time saving there already. And before anybody mentions apartment dwellers, complexes around me have charging, and anyhow that’s a different discussion. So fast charging only matters for the occasional road trip. But stations are always near facilities - usually people grab a lunch, and invariably they find charging finishes before they finish their lunch. Jay Leno made this point recently - his daily driver is a Tesla.

Technologies change when something better comes along, but it’s never exactly the same as before. Landlines and payphones disappeared when cell phones came along, but now everybody has to keep charging up their phone too. The advantages of a cell phone over a landline are such that people don’t mind plugging in.

[justa25thTA]

Originally Posted by BigDan

Physicist turned software/electrical engineer here. I work with an EE who has been an EV obsessive for years, he’s my go-to resource.

On charging there are 10 minute charging technologies that haven’t been released yet, but it doesn’t really matter. Maybe you don’t have an EV? When you get your first EV you’ll find it doesn’t matter.

The vast majority of your driving is locally from your house, and everybody charges at home over night. No more gas stations! So big time saving there already. And before anybody mentions apartment dwellers, complexes around me have charging, and anyhow that’s a different discussion. So fast charging only matters for the occasional road trip. But stations are always near facilities - usually people grab a lunch, and invariably they find charging finishes before they finish their lunch. Jay Leno made this point recently - his daily driver is a Tesla.

Technologies change when something better comes along, but it’s never exactly the same as before. Landlines and payphones disappeared when cell phones came along, but now everybody has to keep charging up their phone too. The advantages of a cell phone over a landline are such that people don’t mind plugging in.

I don't have an EV, but I am not against them in theory. There are huge issues with electrical grid capacity though. Last year California issued a warning to home owners to NOT charge their vehicles due to the heat wave. This will only get worse as more and more adopt the technology.

Also, the additional time for a single vehicle to charge at a station may not be a big deal, but the number of vehicles you can get thru a station certainly is.

[thrifty bill]

"The vast majority of your driving is locally from your house, and everybody charges at home over night. No more gas stations! So big time saving there already. And before anybody mentions apartment dwellers, complexes around me have charging, and anyhow that’s a different discussion. So fast charging only matters for the occasional road trip. But stations are always near facilities - usually people grab a lunch, and invariably they find charging finishes before they finish their lunch. Jay Leno made this point recently - his daily driver is a Tesla. "

Not true in my case at all. My f150 gets 100% of the long trip duty, whether pulling a trailer or not. As far as local around town use, my F150 gets little or no use. It's not like I do not use it, I've got 170,000 miles on it right now. If the new vehicle market wasn't so screwed up right now, I probably would have replaced it by now.

Now an EV for around town service? I believe we are there right now.


When we go camping, the typical trip is one month in length, and 6,000 to 12,000 miles in distance. Travel days on the road tend to be 600 miles or more. So an EV is just not there yet. When they do get to that point, I'll gladly buy one. My guess is they are about 10 years away right now. But it could be a lot sooner in that. With just a discovery on battery technology or hyper-fast charging, EV will be the winner. And my age at that point, my travel may be dramatically different, towing may just be a memory.

[ShelbyM]

Originally Posted by BigDan

Technologies change when something better comes along, but it’s never exactly the same as before.

I think it's important to acknowledge that in this case better doesn't have to be cheaper or more convenient. The folks who understand this stuff say that our current ICE use is unsustainable. EVs don't have to be perfect to be better than something we can't have.

[BigDan]

Originally Posted by justa25thTA

I don't have an EV, but I am not against them in theory. There are huge issues with electrical grid capacity though. Last year California issued a warning to home owners to NOT charge their vehicles due to the heat wave. This will only get worse as more and more adopt the technology.

Yah, I live in California, let me explain some things behind the headlines you read. First is that no grid is designed to withstand outlier events, not because we can’t, but because there’s no point. It’s expensive to worry about a 1% problem when there are simpler solutions. Last year was a heat wave (this year it’s been cool). So when these periodic heat waves happen, they put out warnings like that, and additionally put energy providers on notice for spare capacity. I have solar and for fun watch the grid occasionally, there’s an app where you can see up to the minute status of the California grid in all detail. I watched during that heat wave, and it was a nothing burger - because they planned for it. As we got to peak capacity, big users pulled back, peaker plants came on line, and the grid was fine. Because that’s how the system is designed.

The warning was just that - a warning, one that nobody needed because only an idiot would charge at peak rate 4-9PM. Everybody charges at night. But I keep seeing people mention that headline they read from - where ever - like it somehow signifies a problem. No it was the grid functioning normally and dealing with an unusual event - brilliantly.

Otherwise the idea ‘the grid is fundamentally broken’ is a popular one. Not that I’ve seen any basis for that, other than mention of anecdotal headlines. I’ll just say - Norway has 80% EV adoption and their grid is handling it just fine. I could get into the technicals of why it’s not that hard, but I’d ask, are people saying there’s something the Norwegians can do that we can’t here?

I’ll say - the only grid with a problem is the Texas grid. Sorry Texans but your grid truly is a horror show. It’s islanded - cut off from all the other grids, apparently for some kind of Texan independence thing. Well anyhow that independence earned them the winter disaster a few years back. Again nobody will build a grid to withstand outlier events, but you have protections, and tying to national grids is one of them (and Canadian, and Mexican)..

Also, the additional time for a single vehicle to charge at a station may not be a big deal, but the number of vehicles you can get thru a station certainly is.

Ah this is a fair point. The number of stalls. Well NEVI is putting billions into it, and America is good at big projects (e.g. man on the Moon) - so again I don’t see the angst.

[BigDan]

Originally Posted by thrifty bill

Not true in my case at all. My f150 gets 100% of the long trip duty, whether pulling a trailer or not.

That’s fine, statistically the vast majority of travel for the vast majority of people is local. With any bell curve there are outliers - anybody who road trips is one. But again the Silverado breaks the barrier to towing, and more capacity is coming soon, so I don’t see an issue with it.

Originally Posted by ShelbyM

I think it's important to acknowledge that in this case better doesn't have to be cheaper or more convenient. The folks who understand this stuff say that our current ICE use is unsustainable. EVs don't have to be perfect to be better than something we can't have.

True, but for adoption and sustainability in a democratic free market system, the new tech has to be better for it to be successful. People bought the Prius to be ‘green’ but it was bogus, those same people gleefully flew and lived a high carbon lifestyle - it’s called greenwashing. So the great thing Tesla did was come out not with EV’s, but better cars. Silent, faster, cooler, insanely good software and the like. Same for us towing nerds - initial reports towing with EV’s is a dream - again silent, no brake use, regen off the truck and trailer, tons of torque and acceleration and so forth. People will buy it for those reasons, not to be green, and it’ll take over as soon as they can produce them in quantity.

[BigDan]

By the way everybody THANKS for the civil discussion. Lots of level headed folks here. Pretty much on RV forums people are open to have an adult discussion, but believe it or not the big exception is the Airstream forum. Bunch of nutty, angry people over there who go non linear and shut down any discussion about electric transport. Airstreams are supposed to be the ‘cream of the crop’ but owners are at the bottom of the barrel in my experience. I decided to buy fiberglass instead, in no small part that I didn’t want to be associated with people who behave like that

[Steve Outlaw]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

Here’s one: Oliver vs Escape Price Difference
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sha...2&share_type=t

I know this owner and there's a hell of lot more to that story than preferring one over the other.

[Steve Outlaw]

Originally Posted by BigDan

Don’t worry, that’s wrong, wrong and really wrong. Towing with a Silverado EV will make you smile - silent, cheaper operating costs, no brake wear, no need for weight distribution hitch, advanced cockpit software and built in anti sway, in a 450 mile base range. All fiberglass trailers will be no problem.

I'm not sure what bush you're hiding behind, but everything you stated is a pipe dream.

[jgilliam1955]

The RV business will die when we are forced to use EV's.
Solar Panels and windmills are a joke. We should be using all the above.
Nuclear Power is the only clean energy we have to do the job.


The United States government has conducted several studies to determine the number of charging stations required to support the growing number of electric vehicles (EVs) on the road. According to a study by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), the US will need 182,000 publicly accessible fast charging ports to support 30-42 million light-duty EVs on the road by 20301. Another report by the UK government suggests that the country will need at least 280,000 to 480,000 public chargepoints by 2030 to support the shift to EVs2.

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by jgilliam1955

Nuclear Power is the only clean energy we have to do the job.

While that may be true, storing nuclear waste is a HUGE problem. Not in my backyard!!! We have the Hanford Nuclear Reservation on the shores of the Mighty Columbia River, which is due east and up river from me.

From the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (.gov) website:

What happened at the Hanford nuclear site?

Activities at Hanford produced significant quantities of waste containing hazardous chemicals and radioactive materials. Some of these contaminants leaked into the land and water, including into the Columbia River.

I think only those that don't have a nuclear waste site in their living area would support nuclear power. As is said YMMV

[ShelbyM]

Originally Posted by jgilliam1955

According to a study by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), the US will need 182,000 publicly accessible fast charging ports to support 30-42 million light-duty EVs on the road by 20301.

There are +/- 150,000 gas stations in the US with estimated 900,000 to 1.8 million individual pumps.

[Iowa Dave]

Lifestyle, conscientious respect for the environment, good forward planning and the willingness to set priorities that make life enjoyable can all be combined to live a great life.
We decided a few years back to turn the gain up on saving energy and ready ourselves for the years we hope to get out of retirement. To that cause we first installed a metal roof with a 50 year guarantee. It suffered no damage in the devastating derecho we were hit with in 2020. Then we changed out our windows and doors with new lifetime replacement windows with the latest window technology. Next we installed geothermal heating and cooling to reduce our propane use by 80%. The geo bumped our electrical usage up. So we installed a 7.6 kWh solar array that takes care of all of our electrical needs . The payback on that system is 6.2 years. We’re halfway there. The geothermal payback is complete. My electric bill is only the daily distribution cost of 42 cents a day. We are collecting extra electricity which have been paid for but we are now going to use it to charge our new EV. This will reduce my gasoline bill and trips to the filling stations considerably. Our average daily trip is 21 miles. Hardly difficult to stay up with that using the sun. We will continue to tow with our Highlander which will have an extended life eliminating short trips will cut down the miles driven with it per year. The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary and we’ve worked hard to have a successful, fun, wide ranging retirement with tens of thousands of camping miles towing our Escapes.

The nuclear plant at Palo Iowa has been decommissioned, the coal fired 6th street generating station in Cedar Rapids, decommissioned and torn down. The coal fired generation station at Lansing Iowa is being demolished. In their places are hundreds of solar installations of all sizes from huge fields of panels to little lighted stop signs way out in the country. Very hard to miss one of those. Power generating Windmills abound in Iowa and the community colleges have new curriculums to train people to maintain them. Say what you want, the world is changing, sometimes for the better, sometimes not.

61 percent of electricity in Iowa comes from solar and wind generation. And as an aside 60 percent of the corn grown in Iowa is used in the production of ethanol/gasoline mix fuel. While people starve in our country and in our World.

All the rain that falls on the property we own stays there. There’s virtually no runoff out of our prairie or out of our wetland at our Tama county farm. No land applied manure either.
Iowa Dave

[Mike Magee]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

While that may be true, storing nuclear waste is a HUGE problem. Not in my backyard!!! We have the Hanford Nuclear Reservation on the shores of the Mighty Columbia River, which is due east and up river from me.

From the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (.gov) website:

What happened at the Hanford nuclear site?

Activities at Hanford produced significant quantities of waste containing hazardous chemicals and radioactive materials. Some of these contaminants leaked into the land and water, including into the Columbia River.

I think only those that don't have a nuclear waste site in their living area would support nuclear power. As is said YMMV

From what I've heard, the solution is to switch from uranium to thorium. Thorium waste is something like 5% of the amount produced by uranium. Thorium is far less susceptible to meltdown, and it's safer to work around. Thorium doesn't lend itself to weaponry, either. The technology exists already, it just needs to be scaled up. I heard a Ph.D. talk about this topic, I forget his name.

[CarlD]

EVs will not kill the rv industry! I get about 60-70 percent of my non-towing mileage when towing. Energy is energy, whether it comes from fossil fuels, bio fuels, diesel, batteries etc. Naturally you will have to recharge/refuel more often when towing. Two problems with EVs is the charge time and range. Fortunately someone told some engineers and scientists that it can't be done so you know it will happen and EVs will get better, longer range batteries that charge in 10 minutes. You might need 2 charge cables to charge it but it will happen. Another big issue holding back EVs is sub assembly people and oil companies. Big oil is obvious. Sub assembly producers will have to make big changes. No more mufflers, engines, fuel injectors, spark plugs, radiator hoses, etc. etc.. Lots of push back on EVs from these sectors. As a nation if we pull together we can do amazing things, BUT, big money and profits drive us. Face it, EVs are just a bunch of electronics on wheels, relatively easy to produce, high reliability, low maintenance. Lots of jobs, processes and supply chains are going to change. Alan Greenspan calls this stuff creative destruction, it killed the horse and carriage. Get ready to charge your batteries. End Of Rant.

[jgilliam1955]

The towing test done with an average-sized camper was 100 miles range.
Who is going to tow for 100 miles, find a place you can fit into, unhook, spend an hour charging, and then hook the camper back up?

[Iowa Dave]

Originally Posted by jgilliam1955

The towing test done with an average-sized camper was 100 miles range.
Who is going to tow for 100 miles, find a place you can fit into, unhook, spend an hour charging, and then hook the camper back up?

My prediction is that there will be a melding of EV needs, camping with an EV Tow vehicle and conventional towing and camping. Already there are campgrounds with charging stations that are pull through areas for the general public to use and to pay for just like any charging station at a auto and truck plaza etc. . Campground operators both commercial and governmental will see the opportunity to add a revenue stream and while the non camper charges up,
they can enjoy a lunch our of their own cooler,
walk to a nearby restaurant, Wet a line in the nearby pond or river, play a game of pickleball, Disc Golf, hit some driving range balls, whatever.
Times are Changing. Ever attend a lecture by Faith Popcorn? She will make you think
Iowa Dave

[Lynn Eberhardt]

A plug-in hybrid is a great interim solution.

[jgilliam1955]

I have a Casita but if I had the money my choice would be Big Foot, Escape then Oliver. Oliver if you are doing four seasons. Big Foot has a 25 foot trailer. The Oliver is a very very very fancy Casita type camper.

[jgilliam1955]

Originally Posted by justa25thTA

I don't have an EV, but I am not against them in theory. There are huge issues with electrical grid capacity though. Last year California issued a warning to home owners to NOT charge their vehicles due to the heat wave. This will only get worse as more and more adopt the technology.

Also, the additional time for a single vehicle to charge at a station may not be a big deal, but the number of vehicles you can get thru a station certainly is.

The problem is EV's are not the only answer. But they are being forced on us. In our state they did have a agreement to stop selling Gas powered cars by 2035. Our Governor canceled it but it can come back. Obama giving a talk years ago stating things are to cheap and we have to fix this.