Advice Installing Power / Electrical from Scratch

[RussP]

Hi,
We have a 1974 13" Boler with out any power or wiring at all. Only have wires to tail lights and side markers. We don't even have any wiring where the shore power once was. Previous owner removed all this. Should mention we don't have a fridge but may consider putting in high efficiency 12v fridge down the road.

Would like some advice on some options and how to go about doing a install of basic battery power setup or powerpack (really keen on powerpack) without costing too much. Try to keep costs down and not go over board.

We use AA battery type lights at the moment.

We want to power the following.
1. Inside Lights
2. Roof vent with electric fan
3. Possibly charge a camera battery or cell phone
4. Will NOT be using Microwave or other kitchen applicances.

Option 1.
Purchase power pack from Canadian Tire ($179) and keep in trailer under sink and wire lights & fan to 12v input on powerpack.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/product_...D=1207600349560

Powerpack can be easily removed from trailer and recharged in the house...may consider buying solar panel next year to charge powerpack on longer trips or borrow family generator.

Powerpack is basically a battery & inverter all in one unit with a handle on it. Has 3 plugs on it and 12v input.

Has anyone has experience using a powerpack as a main power source for lights, fan, fridge...

Great thing about a powerpack is I can use it other places, nice and mobile.

Option 2. Cost???
Purchase 12v deep cycle battery mount on trailer tongue. I guess you would need some 12V wiring and possibly and inverter. The powerpack seems to accomplish all of this in one unit???


Your thoughts.

Cheers Russ

[Booker B.]

If you are going to get a 12v fridge then you will probably be best served with a good 12v system (couple of 6v Golf Cart batteries / 3 stage charger, good converter etc...) but I am still learning about all this myself (good article here)

However, I do know about Canadian tire:

Rule #1: Only buy when it's on sale.
Rule #2: Everything Goes on Sale.
Rule #3: Everything with their house brand will be 50% or more on sale within a month.

[brendadave]

We have that very battery in our trailer. Simple to connect, simple wire a male cigarette style 12 volt plug to the 12 volt system where it enters the trailer, plug it into the 12volt socket on the side of the unit, and there ya go.

It looks like you are in Edmonton, run down to the Millwoods Canadian Tire, they have those for $99.98 for a refurbished unit, in most cases those units are only "refurbished" because someone brought it back because they didn't want it. I bought mine for $89.98 when they had a $10.00 off internet coupon...nice deal.

By the time summer summer comes, I shall have it configured for charging in the trailer either by solar, 12volt, or 120.

As you said, it is also nice to be able to use it away from the trailer too.

If you are to hook up a 12volt fridge, this wouldn't be enough power to last you very long, we only use it for lights, small 12volt fans, and maybe to run mobile phone or computer when batteries are dead.

[Darwin Maring]

Install no wire smaller than 12 gauge. 10 Gauge is better and 8 gauge is best.

West Marine states that Marine Grade wire is based on American Wire Gauge and is 6 to 12% larger than SAE gauge wire. They also state that the marine wire has more strands and is individually tined so it will not corrode as ordinary auto type wire will and it is more durable and can withstand vibration where ordinary auto type of wire will have a loss of conductivity due to vibration.

This is a most informative catalog to have as there are many items that campers can use.

Go to the following web sites to read about wire and/or to order a catalog.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/store.../MarineWire.htm

www.westmarine.com

Go to this page, enlarge and read more about wire.

http://ecatalog.westmarine.com/full.asp?page=430

[John Perry]

I have to agree with Byron 14 gauge wire is all you should ever need in your trailer.
I just installed a charge line from the TV battery to the trailer and a brake line from the controller to the trailer and I did use 10 gauge wire. I was almost $20.00 for only 40 ft.. 10 gauge is an expensve and unnecessary expense for your needs.
You do not lose due conductivity due to vibration in a marine enviroment. You lose it because of corrosion. I know from experience because when I lived in Southern Cal. I had an off shore fishing boat.
John

[Victor Benz]

I have no real comments with those mentioned here, but I would start one step before that.

1) On a clean sheet of paper, draw a layout of your trailer.
2) Make several copies of that layout.
3) With colored pens, lay out where you may want 12 volt items, and where you want 120 volt items. Include all the ones you may eventually have. (e.g. furnace or heater, fridge, water pump, lights etc.)
4) Don't forget to include the 12 volt cigarette lighter outlets for chargers, TV, and computer.
5) I have wired each 12 volt circuit individually back to the battery connection block.
6)I would allow for at least 2 - 120 volt outlets in the trailer, one near the back and one near the front.
7) Decide on how you are going to power this, buy it, and install!

Vic

[RussP]

We have that very battery in our trailer. Simple to connect, simple wire a male cigarette style 12 volt plug to the 12 volt system where it enters the trailer, plug it into the 12volt socket on the side of the unit, and there ya go.

It looks like you are in Edmonton, run down to the Millwoods Canadian Tire, they have those for $99.98 for a refurbished unit, in most cases those units are only "refurbished" because someone brought it back because they didn't want it. I bought mine for $89.98 when they had a $10.00 off internet coupon...nice deal.

By the time summer summer comes, I shall have it configured for charging in the trailer either by solar, 12volt, or 120.

As you said, it is also nice to be able to use it away from the trailer too.

If you are to hook up a 12volt fridge, this wouldn't be enough power to last you very long, we only use it for lights, small 12volt fans, and maybe to run mobile phone or computer when batteries are dead.

Wow, thanks for the tip on the reburbished unit at Millwoods C.T. I be sure to check it out. You mentioned you have 12V lighting in your trailer. Where do a person find specifically 12V lighting or do you use just regular wall mounted lights from a hardware store. I'm new to this so not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for. I'm hoping to find some high efficiency really bright lights probably 3-4 of them. Was hoping for L.E.D or flouresents or those new high efficiency curly type bulbs.

Typically how long does a powerpack like the Canadian Tire one we are talking about last you when you go away for a weekend. How long does it usually take to get a a full charge?

Thanks Russ

[brendadave]

1. You mentioned you have 12V lighting in your trailer. Where do a person find specifically 12V lighting.
2. Was hoping for L.E.D or flouresents or those new high efficiency curly type bulbs.
3. Typically how long does a powerpack like the Canadian Tire one we are talking about last you when you go away for a weekend.
4. How long does it usually take to get a a full charge?

Thanks Russ

1. You can get 12volt fixtures at any RV store, sometimes you can find them at Princess Auto as well.
2. You won't find these at any local RV store yet, I have not been able to find good LED lights locally yet, except you may have read on this forum about using some from IKEA.
3. The longest we were away from electricity last year was 6 days, we had a smaller battery then, but recharged everyday with the 13Watt folding solar panel they have on sale at Princess Auto right now for $99. Using the Canadian Tire one you are lookig at, we were away for 2 nights, we didn't recharge, and it still showed 90% on the meter (it only increments by 10) when we left for home.
4. I would have to check the manual, but if I remember correctly, I can do a solar charge in about 8 hours...can't remember the 120volt, I just leave it overnight. That unit is nice because it has protection from overcharging, that is how I killed my cheaper one.

That battery is versitle because you can charge by solar, 12volt from your Tow Vehicle, or by 120Volt.

[Gina D.]

Really, I have no clue why anyone would claim that vibration affects conductivity accept for, as Byron mentions, pure marketing hype. The claim of extra strands might have, in the farthest stretch of the imaginable circumstances, and REALLY far, a higher chance of prevention of total loss of a connection.. just by shear luck of a strand holding on. Personally, I would rather have total disconnect than something hanging on by a thread.. it makes troubleshooting SO much easier.

Most of my trailer, including the solar charging system, is 12-14 gauge wire. The wires coming from my panels, the ones installed at the panel manufacturer, are 14 gauge, with what appears to be 16 gauge to parallel the 2 panels in the folding arrangement together. (The little 13 watt panels Brenda mentions) I keep my runs as short as possible, but am not too freaked out about the Nth loss if I have to use a longer line from my panels to charger.

10 gauge for charging from car to trailer is reasonable, especially if running your fridge on 12v while underway, but with the small current requirements in most 12v systems IN your trailer, it isn't needed and provides no additional benefit. It's like using a jack hammer to install paneling nails.

And Victor has an excellent plan of attack.

[Art VanDelay]

Victor was right on with his advice where Darwin might have misquoted a tad however once reading the boat site I found some very interesting and most informative information and see what Darwin was trying to convey. Both had objective information and I can see where the others think it might be to expensive to install the boat wire.

There is nothing wrong with either auto or marine grade wire as long as it is used and installed according to the codes specified for the installation. The number one thing to remember is your safety and the wrong wire, a wrong covering, a wrong fuse can be deadly. Do your math and install the correct size wiring for the application and remember, Installing a larger gauge wire gives you an additional margin of safety.

I took the time to read the West Marine chart information and found it to be most informative and scientifically correct. They have correct and concise charts to use and it takes the guesswork out of the planning.

I also took the time to enlarge and read the catalog page and once again I concur that marine grade wire is superior to ordinary auto vehicle wiring.

The thin strands are tined and the size of the wire make it superior to most other wiring that you would install in a boat, camper or other vehicle. The tinning of the copper strands provides some corrosion resistance and the number of thin conductors make it more flexible and able to withstand vibrations better than ordinary auto wire. Vibrations at the connections is most critical.

The cost is more expensive than auto wire, is superior to auto wire, so if you want the absolute best and want to do it only once the cost may be warranted.

Direct current has a great loss over distances and even more loss in smaller wire so it is quite important to use larger gauge wire in this circuitry. When you look at the rewired camper to tow vehicle wiring you will find several gauge's of wire. It is engineered for the load of each circuit. Tail/Stop lights use a small gauge where the battery circuit and trailer brake circuit use larger gauge's.

On the inside DC circuits such as lights, I would use 12 or gauge and only go bigger should the calculations say so. The chart on the marine web site will give you an idea of what size to use and it states that if your calculations state 12 gauge and you are going to have a round trip loop in excess of 10 feet, to go to the next larger size of wire.

Alternating Current travels much better over wire with less loss than DC however larger gauge is better. I would never use any thing smaller than 12 gauge and fuse accordingly.

For heavy loads such as an air conditioner I would use 12 or 10 gauge (Based on length and amps) and fuse accordingly.

Just because a wire will take 40 amps does not mean that you should fuse for 40 amps, you should fuse for the intended load such as an air conditioner that is rated over 15 amps but not 20 amps, fuse for 20 amps. This will allow your air to work and will protect the circuit should something go wrong.

[Lisa H.]

The timing for this topic is perfect since I am buying my first FGRV on Saturday and am going to need to put in lighting and 12v receptacles. I came across this website which has quite a variety of 12v appliances, lights, etc.

http://www.swego.com

Here are two 12v LED light fixtures that may have potential but I could not get the pictures to come out:

http://www.swego.com/mall/eyelight_9341_led.asp
12 volt, 1 watt, LED Surface Mount Ceiling Light, Adjustable"Eyelight 9341" Plastic, surface mount, adjustable LED light with switch. Colors: white, chrome, matt silver or sandstone. Includes 12 volt, 1 watt LED cluster (comparable to a 7 watt Xenon bulb). Prices range from $30-$35.00 depending on color.

http://www.swego.com/mall/tube-led-9006.asp
12 volt, 1 watt LED, Adjustable Wall Mount Spotlight "Tube 9006" Plastic LED light with switch. Colors: Base white, gold, chrome, matt silver or sandstone. LED cluster Included (comparable to a 5 watt Xenon bulb). White $36.76;
Gold $43.96; Matt Silver, Sandstone, and Chrome $43.96.

Please feel free to state your opinions about the lights above, as I prefer to learn from your experiences and wisdom rather than from my mistakes! (Especially since I know nothing about electrical systems and appliances )

[Gina D.]

Lisa, those look like some good alternatives and certainly would be easy for the novice to install because the switch is built in.

They are much handsomer than a lot of the LED lighting options we have seen in the past. Altho these are not cheap, they are certainly much lower in price than we have seen for cosmetically nice fixtures.

I am going to put the link in our helpful links section. Thank you.. and now you are making me spend more money :-P

[Greg A]

After a lifetime of wiring vehicles from VW Beetles, kit cars, and now fiberglass travel trailers my personal opinion is that wiring these circuits with anything smaller than 12ga is akin to killing an ant with a shotgun.

Like Gina said above, if one is trying to support a 12V fridge during travel then you might consider a 10ga recharging line from the TV, but I've had a 12ga on mine for a year and it tops my battery right back up when we move without any excess heat on the wire.

Is marine wire better than automotive wire? Probably.
Is it necessary? In my experience, no. Never had an automotive wiring failure in all my years of wiring 12v circuits.

I guess, if it is important to someone that they have marine wire in their egg, then I would certainly go for it. Me personally, I'd rather put the excess funds from using perfectly adequate wire, into something you see, like PeterH's new shower and cabinet doors.

Just my wiring 2 cents.......

[Bigfoot Mike]

Greg A. - I am almost with you 100%. Where I vary is that I had to do three things in order for the frig to run properly while traveling. I had shorten the length of run to my Frig, eliminate the number of connections (each connection lowers the voltage) and increase the size wire to 10 AWG in order to be able to run the frig while towing.

I think I just spent part of your 2¢

[Morgan]

Like Gina said above, if one is trying to support a 12V fridge during travel then you might consider a 10ga recharging line from the TV, but I've had a 12ga on mine for a year and it tops my battery right back up when we move without any excess heat on the wire.

Greg A. - I am almost with you 100%. Where I very is that I had to do three things in order for the frig to run properly while traveling. I had shorten the length of run to my Frig, eliminate the number of connections (each connection lowers the voltage) and increase the size wire to 10 AWG in order to be able to run the frig while towing.

I think I just spent part of your 2¢

The difference is that Greg has a much smaller refrigerator than yours, Mike.

[Gina D.]

Beer companies try to lease Mikes new big beautiful Bigfoot fridge for transport of stock when he is one the road.

It's lovely and I am very jealous. It's a "Real" fridge.

We have little puney things that *May* hold one popcycle and a six pack of pop.. sigh.

[Morgan]

Beer companies try to lease Mikes new big beautiful Bigfoot fridge for transport of stock when he is one the road.
It's lovely and I am very jealous. It's a "Real" fridge.
We have little puney things that *May* hold one popcycle and a six pack of pop.. sigh.

I think Mike was talking about his Casita, Gina. It had a 4.1 cu ft versus about 3 cu ft or less for Greg's.

[Steve L.]

My sense of this discussion is that there are engineering reasons to use marine wiring and even marine hardware (although it hasn't been part of the discussion so far).

But it's an issue of cost versus benefit.

We all seem to be weighing the benefit side differently because there is more than an engineering side to the benefits.

Fully tinned wire is better for corrosion resistance but not all of us are near the ocean and salt air is probably the leading contributor to corrosion.

Increased strands and cross sectional area does reduce losses from resistance but if most of our time is spent hooked to shore power then it's less of an issue (benefit).

I only use stainless hardware, but much of it is installed inside the trailer. I think it will look good longer and it suits MY personal sense of what I want MY work to look like. That may be of little benefit to others.

I haven't seen any dangerous recommendations so far. Mostly just people reporting what works for them.

[Will O'Crotty]

Howdy . I'm a licensed Master Tech for the past 40 + years . I " matured " as ayoung apprentice on Lincoln Continental " Hard Top Boxes " . Remember ? Hard tops which disappeared into trunks ? Cool but waaaay toooo complicated . Before computers . Not to blow me Horn , just givin' some very sound advice . Even if you are fair at wirin' , get HP Books - Automotive Electrical Handbook by Jim Horner . An absolute " Must " for your Library . Also get " Shore Power " - Basic AC Electrical Systems on your Boat . 'Tis from Marinco ( Marine Electrical Products , Novato , Cal. ) { 415 } 883-3347 Boat stuff is safety first end- loaded . This is the one for 110 / 120 V systems . Previous is for 12V systems . These two books are written in laymans terms and are easy to comprehend . Do not be afraid of electricity , it's " Only 12 Volts " or the oft heard phrase , " it's only 110 Volts " are echoed daily from the work sight . Good Luck , Will O'Crotty

[Greg A]

Beer companies try to lease Mikes new big beautiful Bigfoot fridge for transport of stock when he is one the road.
It's lovely and I am very jealous. It's a "Real" fridge.
We have little puney things that *May* hold one popcycle and a six pack of pop.. sigh.

Now we know which trailer to hang out at at gatherings!!

-