Camping in the driveway-electrical question

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by gordon2

Perhaps I should have said many (or some) instead of most...

"...only a licensed electrician can pull a permit for such a job in most jurisdictions..

But in the areas I have lived a homeowner can do many things (with permits and inspections) but add an electrical circuit is not one of them.

Bottom line is to check with your local authority and find out what it allowed and required.

Where we live only a licensed Master electrician can pull a permit
A licensed journeyman electrician is required to work under a master electrician and cannot pull permits
Apprentice electricians are required to work under the direct supervision of a master or journeyman electrician IE : Apprentices cannot work alone
It took me 6 years to get my journeyman’s license —- 2 years of full time vocational college , 4 years or 8300 hours on the job training and 4 years (1200 hrs ) of night school

[John in Santa Cruz]

around here, you can pull your own permit and do your own wiring, but if you do, the inspector will be WAY more annoying. if he sees the job was done by a regular local contractor he's familiar with, the inspection is cursory at best.

caveat emptor.

[thrifty bill]

I have gotten multiple permits to do my own work: wiring, building a garage, or whatever in many different places I have lived across the USA. Always check. Rules vary state to state, and even town to town.

In the areas I have lived, you had two choices on permits, either a licensed professional, or the homeowner.

In this case, you are not the homeowner, so I would seek out a professional to do the work. Its a single circuit, hopefully close to the main breaker panel, the cost to have it professionally done shouldn't be that much.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

...
It took me 6 years to get my journeyman’s license —- 2 years of full time vocational college , 4 years or 8300 hours on the job training and 4 years (1200 hrs ) of night school

1. That explains the $600 estimate I got for a 30 amp RV outlet.

2. I got Déjà vu reading your post, again.. LOL

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by gordon2

1. That explains the $600 estimate I got for a 30 amp RV outlet.

2. I got Déjà vu reading your post, again.. LOL

I did estimating for several contractors and all I can say is at $600 for the work you described someone’s getting SCREWED and it ain’t the contractor

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

I did estimating for several contractors and all I can say is at $600 for the work you described someone’s getting SCREWED and it ain’t the contractor

Well it was a little over $400 for a 20 amp outlet in the crawl space for a dehu. And I am pretty sure that was the best price because it was what the contractor paid (supposedly) and when I tried to out bid them on that part of the job with a independent electrician, I could not beat the price.

I would guess there is a wide variation from one area to another. NYC vs maybe Pella, Iowa for example. And every job is a little different (I never did describe the job in detail). So in addition to "check with your local authority and find out what it allowed and required" I would add, "get multiple quotes if hiring the work out."

[mbbear]

Originally Posted by Raspy

You can get a 30 amp trailer plug (twist lock most likely) to 15 amp household male plug adapter. E Trailer is a good place to look or Amazon.

Then you can simply run an extension cord from a convenient plug to the trailer. This will provide only 20 amps, so you can run either the micro or the AC. Even then, the AC might trip the breaker on startup. Use a good cord no longer than necessary and with #12 conductors. This will be labeled a "heavy duty" or 20 amp cord.

If you want to run more power, plug into the dryer plug at the house and adapt that format to the trailer plug. This could be done using your shore power cord and an adapter, but it's probably not long enough.

Please forgive my ignorance, but I don’t understand how plugging into the dryer outlet would work. The power at the outlet is 210/220, how is that compatible with 110 power. I understand that the 220 volt service is two 110 lines and that the dryer outlet would provide 30 amps, but how does the 220 volts get reduced to 110 for the camper’s electrical system? Thanks

[John in Santa Cruz]

older dryer outlets were 3 prong, newer ones are 4 prong.

the 4-prong stuff is just like 50A RV outlets, there's L1, L2 and Neutral, plus ground. L1 to neutral is 120V, L2 to neutral is also 120V but the opposite phase. L1 to L2 is 240V.

the 3-prong stuff is missing neutral, its just L1, L2, and ground, with 240V across L1 to L2, so you can't pull a 120V leg off it, using the ground as return is a huge no.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

older dryer outlets were 3 prong, newer ones are 4 prong.

the 4-prong stuff is just like 50A RV outlets, there's L1, L2 and Neutral, plus ground. L1 to neutral is 120V, L2 to neutral is also 120V but the opposite phase. L1 to L2 is 240V.

the 3-prong stuff is missing neutral, its just L1, L2, and ground, with 240V across L1 to L2, so you can't pull a 120V leg off it, using the ground as return is a huge no.

A 3 prong Dryer outlet consists of 2 hots and a neutral . The frame of the dryer was bonded to the neutral ( Ranges were wired in the same manner )
Wiring in a home is single phase 120/240 so there is no opposite phase thus the title “ Single Phase “. There are two legs in a 120/240 system
A neutral is an intentionally and effectively GROUNDED conductor
The green or bare is an Equipment GROUNDING Conductor .
Calling a wire “GROUND “ is misleading and why the code differentiates between the two In fact each has their own separate code section
This is why I don’t take advice about brain surgery or building a nuclear reactor or many other thing off the internet too seriously
Reading the code is one thing interpreting it is another

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by mbbear

Please forgive my ignorance, but I don’t understand how plugging into the dryer outlet would work. The power at the outlet is 210/220, how is that compatible with 110 power. I understand that the 220 volt service is two 110 lines and that the dryer outlet would provide 30 amps, but how does the 220 volts get reduced to 110 for the camper’s electrical system? Thanks

You're right. It won't work because that is a 220 volt outlet. My mistake. I plug my welder into one of those and wasn't thinking correctly about the RV. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Stephen_Albers]

Here's the broad view of your electrical issue.

Residential wiring is NOT DESIGNED to power mobile devices and should not be used for your trailer. The contemporary code probably requires ground fault circuit interruption protection on outlets which is very sensitive to leakage and will likely trip supplying loads like water heaters, battery chargers, microwaves and air conditioners.

Trailer electrical systems, particularly for small trailers is so inadequate that it would never be allowed in residential, automotive, marine or aircraft service. It is left to the owners to fix the problems. As a general principle, NO utility should be allowed onboard a vehicle without monitoring and control of it. Your trailer has neither for AC power, DC power and propane as well.

To address the AC system, you should install a surge suppressor and monitoring module with an easily accessible remote panel. Near the entry door is a good choice. It will give you complete monitoring of power being used, its quality as well as control. It will not allow defective power onboard and will trip off if power quality deteriorates to where it might damage onboard electrics. It will open all circuits in the event of a lightning strike. It will cost about $300 plus installation.

Shore power source must be arranged from properly grounded home appliance circuits of at least 30 amp service which is designed for loads like your trailer.

Caveat Emptor

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Stephen_Albers

....
To address the AC system, you should install a surge suppressor and monitoring module with an easily accessible remote panel. Near the entry door is a good choice. It will give you complete monitoring of power being used, its quality as well as control. It will not allow defective power onboard and will trip off if power quality deteriorates to where it might damage onboard electrics. It will open all circuits in the event of a lightning strike. It will cost about $300 plus installation....

Or less than $300 if you DIY like I did...

https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-I.../dp/B0050EGS5W

[Tom 72]

I recommend rereading John in Santa Cruz & Steve Dunham's posts, #28 & #29 above.

My limited understanding of the 220 volt outlets is that they are made up of two 110 volt sides, out of phase (?)

There are apparently 3 or 4 prong adapters that will feed just one of those 110 sides into a 30 amp receptacle.

I hesitated to post, because I am no expert here. Someone will post and reveal how little of an expert I am.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Raspy

You're right. It won't work because that is a 220 volt outlet. My mistake. I plug my welder into one of those and wasn't thinking correctly about the RV. Thanks for pointing that out.

A welding outlet is 240 VAC single phase consisting of 2 hots and an equipment grounding conductor .
A 3 wire dryer receptacle is rated 120/ 240 VAC The wiring consists of 2 hots and a neutral
The receptacles are not the same configuration nor are they designed to be used interchangeably.
The wiring methods employed in a trailer conforms
with NEC Chapter 3 Wiring Methods
The idea that the wiring in your trailer is unsafe or second class is false
IE ; The NEC requires 2–20 amp appliance circuits in the kitchen of residences and you are required to have a separate 20 amp laundry circuit
Trailers are not required to meet those portions of the code but that does NOT mean that the wiring in a trailer is inferior ( IE; Requiring a 20 amp laundry circuit in a 13 ft Scamp would be just plain stupid
Homes and travel trailers serve two different purposes and are used differently
The code was smart enough to recognize that fact
The code is a safety manual not a design or instructional manual for the untrained .
We including myself are taking this much farther than needed to answer the OP’s question !!! We have managed to turn a simple 3 day visit into a $2000 electrical construction project
Buy a good 12/3 cord , plug it in and go . Probably the worst thing that will happen is that the circuit breaker will trip , and that’s what their designed to do

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

...We have managed to turn a simple 3 day visit into a $2000 electrical construction project
Buy a good 12/3 cord , plug it in and go . Probably the worst thing that will happen is that the circuit breaker will trip , and that’s what their designed to do

I sure don't see where OP said it was a three day visit, nor do I see the reference to $2,000 project.

Every time this question comes up, and it comes up a lot, it comes down to a single issue, running a larger (roof) A/C, and the potential damage to the compressor from running it on low voltage (brown out). Anything else in a small camper is not much of a concern. Typically the only other item that draws a lot of power is a electric heater, and I doubt they are likely to suffer any damage from low voltage. Even it one did, you just get a new one for $25-30. A new compressor for your A/C will be great deal more expensive.

If OP is talking about spending the entire summer in the driveway (instead of three days), and using the A/C a lot, then I think it is prudent to use take some steps to avoid trouble (such as many of the suggestions which have been made). If OP is not going to use A/C then I second the idea... just plug in using a decent extension cord and don't worry. If you use the microwave and a electric heater at the same time, don't be surprised if a breaker trips (in the camper or the house). You will figure out what is too much to use at one time. Remember the scene from Apollo 13 where they had to turn things on one at a time, and in a specific order, to prevent breakers form tripping? Its the same concept, except a lot less of a hassle when the tripped breakers are on earth.

[Lynn Eberhardt]

After reading all of this, I went out to my 2006 Scamp with a Coleman Mach air conditioner on the roof. The camper stays plugged in all the time (to maintain the battery and sometimes to keep beer cold) at the end of 100 foot 14/3 extension cord powered by half of a three prong plug in the garage. The garage plug (for occasional welding) is supplied by an underground cable from an unused dryer circuit in the house. A Kill-A-Watt meter in the trailer showed 119.6 volts with only the converter running. I turned on the fridge (110) and the AC. With the compressor running and the fan on high, the voltage reading dropped to 110. Go in the house for coffee and toast and to use the microwave. That should be perfectly safe.

A real world report.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eberhardt

...C. With the compressor running and the fan on high, the voltage reading dropped to 110. That should be perfectly safe.

A real world report.

Why not push the button and get the amps or watts reading at the same time? We would love to have that valuable information.

And keep in mind that you cant really measure the much higher inrush current when it starts with that device (because it lasts such a short time). Also hopefully your line voltage from the utililty is pretty stable.. thats not always the case in some areas.

[Stephen_Albers]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

I have 2 separate 20 amp circuit run to 2 GFCI receptacles where I park my trailer
We use the trailer as a guest room in the Summer and have never tripped a breaker . The circuits are run underground in 1” PVC and the circuit conductors are #10 wire.
I built my cabin in 1988 and did not get a trailer until 2010 so it pays to plan ahead

If your GFCI breakers don't trip with appliance trailer loads then the GFCIs have failed which represents a shock hazard. Quality GFCIs have a tiny built-in test button to verify correct operation. If yours do not have one then I suggest they be upgraded to verify safe operation.

[Lynn Eberhardt]

Originally Posted by gordon2

Why not push the button and get the amps or watts reading at the same time? We would love to have that valuable information.

And keep in mind that you cant really measure the much higher inrush current when it starts with that device (because it lasts such a short time). Also hopefully your line voltage from the utililty is pretty stable.. thats not always the case in some areas.

I didn't bother to put the meter between the cord and the trailer for my quick voltage test. Just plugged it in to an outlet.

To answer your question, I went back out. At 5:30 PM, local time, the initial voltage was down by 1 but the final, in use voltage was still 110. Total amp draw with the same usage as before was 6.5. Yes, it's a small air conditioner but it came with the Scamp and keeps it cool. The idling converter draws 5 watts.

The inrush for start shouldn't cause a problem because it's so brief. Any heavy amp draw by the AC due to low voltage should trip the onboard 15Amp circuit breaker.

[Jon Vermilye]

Originally Posted by Stephen_Albers

If your GFCI breakers don't trip with appliance trailer loads then the GFCIs have failed which represents a shock hazard. Quality GFCIs have a tiny built-in test button to verify correct operation. If yours do not have one then I suggest they be upgraded to verify safe operation.

I'm not sure I understand. A properly wired trailer with undamaged appliances will not trip a GFCI. Both of my Escapes have had no problems connecting to GFCIs that pass both internal & external test buttons.

I've also camped in both trailers in campgrounds that have GFCI breakers on their 30 amp RV receptacles. Unusual, but one was a Missouri State Park.