Does anyone have a GFCI outlet at the Kitchen Sink? - Page 2 - Fiberglass RV
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:37 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Casita Greg View Post
Not that what you're doing wouldn't work, but I just gotta ask, why do you have each outlet on a separate circuit? Just seems like way overkill to me, but it's your rig. I can't imagine what you would possibly be plugging in that would require separately wired receptacles in the first place.
Greg , I ran a separate 20 amp circuit to the kitchen of my Casita.
Now we can run a coffee pot inside the trailer and our electric griddle outside our trailer when making breakfast.
The way the factory wired the trailer this was not possible.
Many trailers run a single 15 amp circuit down one side of the trailer and one down the other side so you have to unplug the coffee pot to make a piece of toast which I think is a PITA
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:57 AM   #22
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Electric griddle? I'm coming to your site for breakfast.
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:09 AM   #23
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Electric griddle? I'm coming to your site for breakfast.
We often go camping with our daughters and their families so in the morning I am often making breakfast for 8 to 12 people..
The griddle works great for making bacon, sausage , pancakes, French toast , hashbrowns etc . We use a small crackpot to keep the bacon or sausage warm while cooking pancakes or French toast. I would rather cook outside and keep the mess outside but to each their own.
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:17 AM   #24
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I have a 2010 13' Scamp and it too has the plug at the end of the sink- non GFI. My GFI is mounted on the opposite side of the galley under the closet. I did take advantage of it and ran an outside plug to it. I would order the outside AC plug if I was ordering again. Didnt really think of it then. But it's sure nice. Anyway, it was handy having the GFI within 3' of it.

But I have to agree as to why they would mount a plug "under" the sink and it not be GFI! But that is Scamp.

But then again, after reading this topic, I got thinking. Dig this! I have a plug under the sink UNDER all the plumbing that Scamp installed for the refrig and it's not GFI!
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:20 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Darral T. View Post
...
But I have to agree as to why they would mount a plug "under" the sink and it not be GFI! But that is Scamp.
...
Yup...

2016 Scamp #4:
Outlets on both sides of dinette, front bench, microwave shelf, fridge compartment and outside. Six total.

Outside outlet is GFIC and does not control any of the other outlets, so 5 of 6 are not protected.

Port side dinette and front bench outlets are on a 15 amp breaker.
Starboard side dinette, microwave shelf, fridge and outside are on another 15 amp breaker.
30 amp main breaker and 20 amp for A/C.
(remind me to use the electric heater on the port side our bench outlet if using the microwave!)

I do have a P.I. EMS so I have some protection from bad electrical service if not ground fault.

I could be wrong but I seem to recall that GFIC is required for 15 and 20 amp circuits (in listed locations) but not 30 amp because the total leakage in a 30 amp circuit could be enough to trip the GFIC while still being within tolerances for the individual appliances / outlets.

So now I am wondering if maybe I should install 15 amp GFIC outlets as the first in the chain for the two circuits, or replace the 15 amp breakers (only) with GFIC versions. There really is only one outlet in reach of the sink so maybe that one only? Then again one could easily be using the bench outlet while standing on the ground outside the door, and the same goes for the fridge outlet in the outside compartment were someone to use it for something like an outside fan.
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:22 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Darral T. View Post
...
But then again, after reading this topic, I got thinking. Dig this! I have a plug under the sink UNDER all the plumbing that Scamp installed for the refrig and it's not GFI!
That plug is not for you to use.. its for the fridge. Its like the one I mentioned above, under my lower outside fridge vent. But your question is valid since the outlet is there under your sink, people will use it, even if its not intended to be used for anything other than the fridge.
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:25 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
That plug is not for you to use.. its for the fridge. Its like the one I mentioned above, under my lower outside fridge vent. But your question is valid since the outlet is there under your sink, people will use it, even if its not intended to be used for anything other than the fridge.
That may be true, but seems to me if the manufacturer doesn't want you to use the plug, they should either relocate it or label it accordingly. And if it's under the sink, it should be ground fault protected. Pipes/fittings can leak.
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:35 PM   #28
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Exactly. But Robert posted below your post MY point with it being "under all the plumbing". If a line breaks, sink leaks etc, STRAIGHT into the socket it will go...and no GFI!! (Or would...I've since moved it ). It should have been mounted at LEAST vertically and not horizontally but oh well.

Another thing... I noticed you said "20A" on the A/C? (out of curiosity, do you know what ga wire is ran to it?) Mine came with 14ga wire AND a 15A breaker when my Coleman manual explicitly says use no less 20A and 12ga wire! I called Kent Eveland's hand on it and his comment was "Well, we've never had any problems." Wow. I said "Why risk it??" The problem I have with mine is, I have the heat unit installed (wouldnt again I dont think). That's a 13+ amper right there! So it's borderline.

This has been a good topic....one quite worthy for everyone to read!

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Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
That plug is not for you to use.. its for the fridge. Its like the one I mentioned above, under my lower outside fridge vent. But your question is valid since the outlet is there under your sink, people will use it, even if its not intended to be used for anything other than the fridge.
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:40 PM   #29
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Normally if you install a non GFCI protected receptacle that feeds a specific appliance in a GFCI required area you are required to install a single receptacle and not a duplex receptacle
IE : In garages GFCI receptacles are required .
Garage door openers are notorious for tripping
GFCI's so you were allowed to install a non GFCI receptacle for the door opener but it had to be a single receptacle not a Duplex
You could also install a non GFCI protected receptacle in the garage for a freezer but you had to install a twist lok receptacle so you could not use it as a convenience receptacle.
For every code rule in the NEC there are usually numerous exceptions to the rule.

Wiring also is supposed to comply with the UL listing for the appliance. IE: If the A/C manufactuter UL list the product to use #12 wire or sets a standard higher then the code then you are required to comply .
Scamp has chosen not to comply with the code and to be honest most FG trailer manufacturers have chosen to do the same even the high buck ones !!
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:50 PM   #30
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There have been no single receptacle outlets used for appliances here since the days of using a recessed one for a clock in the kitchen. The only exception is for a garbage disposal under the sink where it is common to disconnect (disable) one of the outlets on a duplex receptacle. Probably due to the location near water?
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:50 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
That plug is not for you to use.. its for the fridge. Its like the one I mentioned above, under my lower outside fridge vent. But your question is valid since the outlet is there under your sink, people will use it, even if its not intended to be used for anything other than the fridge.
In a lot of jurisdictions the receptacle for the refrigerator would have to be a twist lok so it could not be used as a convenience receptacle
Trailers are not homes and are not subject to inspection so they cut corners whenever possible.
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:55 PM   #32
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There have been no single receptacle outlets used for appliances here since the days of using a recessed one for a clock in the kitchen. The only exception is for a garbage disposal under the sink where it is common to disconnect (disable) one of the outlets on a duplex receptacle. Probably due to the location near water?
The US and Canadian standards are not the same.
In the last 10 years when working in the trade , I probably installed over 5000 single receptacles
both in commercial and residential construction
Only a few of them were clock receptacles because most clocks today are battery powered
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Old 03-19-2018, 01:55 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Darral T. View Post
..
Another thing... I noticed you said "20A" on the A/C? (out of curiosity, do you know what ga wire is ran to it?) Mine came with 14ga wire AND a 15A breaker when my Coleman manual explicitly says use no less 20A and 12ga wire! I called Kent Eveland's hand on it ...
I can't prove it but I feel confident that Evelands finally saw the light, or at least heard from enough customers, that they started following the A/C manufacturer's instructions for wiring to the A/C, and that is also the way they currently do it. Now if we could just get them to do the same thing with the Eveland's Inc style propane regulator installations
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Old 03-19-2018, 01:58 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
...
For every code rule in the NEC there are usually numerous exceptions to the rule.
...
With your expertise, Steve, what would you do as far as GFIC in you had the camper I described?

I sure don't mind spending a little money to make it safer.
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Old 03-19-2018, 02:05 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by gordon2 View Post
That plug is not for you to use.. its for the fridge. Its like the one I mentioned above, under my lower outside fridge vent. But your question is valid since the outlet is there under your sink, people will use it, even if its not intended to be used for anything other than the fridge.


If it’s intended to only be used by the refrigerator, then why does it have two outlets? By contrast, the only place that Escape will place an outlet inside a cabinet is for the microwave, and when they do it a single outlet only receptacle, and bears a sticker stating “For Microwave Use Only”.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:19 PM   #36
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You shouldn’t have to go outside or anywhere else to reset a “blown” outlet, whether allowed by code or not.
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Old 03-19-2018, 08:25 PM   #37
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Just install one...

They are very easy to install as long as you have a good ground. What is the big deal.
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Old 03-20-2018, 06:57 AM   #38
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They are very easy to install as long as you have a good ground. What is the big deal.
I agree. Remove outlet from box. Install GFI outlet in box.
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:38 PM   #39
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it would depend on whether or not you had a box to put the receptacle into, lots of campers have RV type plugs, which don't require a box, these outlets are available with GFI if required. depending on the main breaker in your converter, you might be able to make it a GFI breaker which would protect everything after the panel.
And here in Ontario, we use lots of single plugs, door openers(no GFI required(plug is in ceiling), central vacs, etc.
Joe

PS after reading the above- GFI plugs are accepted as an alternative to the old two wire receptacles as long as you can carry a ground back to the main grounding location in your house here as a way of upgrading without completely re-wiring a house
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:34 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Joe MacDonald View Post
it would depend on whether or not you had a box to put the receptacle into, lots of campers have RV type plugs, which don't require a box, these outlets are available with GFI if required. depending on the main breaker in your converter, you might be able to make it a GFI breaker which would protect everything after the panel.
And here in Ontario, we use lots of single plugs, door openers(no GFI required(plug is in ceiling), central vacs, etc.
Joe

PS after reading the above- GFI plugs are accepted as an alternative to the old two wire receptacles as long as you can carry a ground back to the main grounding location in your house here as a way of upgrading without completely re-wiring a house
When substituting a GFCI receptacle for a 2 wire receptacle here in the US (most jurisdictions are under the NEC) no ground run is required, however the receptacle must be labeled that it is not grounded. You do not need a ground for a GFCI to function...
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