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04-26-2013, 11:45 AM
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#1
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Senior Member
Name: Ryan
Trailer: 1979 Scamp 16- side bath
Virginia
Posts: 182
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Electric/Wiring Questions
Should both my AC and DC be grounded to the frame?
Can I run my battery's negative terminal directly to the negative DC terminal on my new PD4045 converter? Or should I run it to the frame, then the frame to the Converters "-" DC?
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04-26-2013, 11:49 AM
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#2
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Just run a ground wire from the converter's ground terminal to the frame. The only reason to ground the frame is to keep it from becoming accidentally electrically live from AC voltage.
If you are using the frame as a DC conductor for lights or brakes, then you would ground the battery negative terminal to the frame as well. Battery to converter should be a straight run. Then you can run a wire to the frame from either battery or converter. In general, is is a bad practice to depend on the frame as a conductor, as it is hard to keep the contacts to the frame from corroding.
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04-26-2013, 12:51 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Typically there two connections to frame. One the green safety ground wire coming from the 120 Connection to external power, the other is the brake wire.
When the converter is connected the to 120 system the safety ground is connected to the negative of the converter, which is also connected to the negative side of the 12 Volt system. This gives the impression when checked with an ohmmeter that the frame is the negative side of the 12 volts system and therefore can be used that way. That was never intended.
The reason the negative side shows up is because UL and other safety organizations want the frame going to safety ground when connected to shore power.
As inside your house safety ground is connected to the Neutral side of the AC line, only in one place and that's at the distribution panel (breaker box).
Thomas is right that to depend on the frame as an electrical conductor is a very poor practice. I don't like for the brakes either.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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04-26-2013, 12:55 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Name: Steve
Trailer: Scamp 13
California
Posts: 1,890
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Scamp grounds the trailer brakes through the frame. If you use a breakaway switch then you will need to provide a ground path from the battery directly to the frame. If your trailer looses connection to your tow there is no longer a breakaway power connection so power must be connected through the on board battery.
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04-26-2013, 12:58 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaz
Scamp grounds the trailer brakes through the frame. If you use a breakaway switch then you will need to provide a ground path from the battery directly to the frame. If your trailer looses connection to your tow there is no longer a breakaway power connection so power must be connected through the on board battery.
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Reread my post above. The connection is still there via the converter.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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04-26-2013, 02:42 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: Escape 21C
New York
Posts: 2,387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman
Typically there two connections to frame. One the green safety ground wire coming from the 120 Connection to external power, the other is the brake wire.
When the converter is connected the to 120 system the safety ground is connected to the negative of the converter, which is also connected to the negative side of the 12 Volt system. This gives the impression when checked with an ohmmeter that the frame is the negative side of the 12 volts system and therefore can be used that way. That was never intended.
The reason the negative side shows up is because UL and other safety organizations want the frame going to safety ground when connected to shore power.
As inside your house safety ground is connected to the Neutral side of the AC line, only in one place and that's at the distribution panel (breaker box).
Thomas is right that to depend on the frame as an electrical conductor is a very poor practice. I don't like for the brakes either.
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I'm assuming you are referring to the campground breaker panel, not the trailers.
As to grounding the converter to the frame, NEC code requires at least a #6 wire...
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04-26-2013, 02:51 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye
I'm assuming you are referring to the campground breaker panel, not the trailers.
As to grounding the converter to the frame, NEC code requires at least a #6 wire...
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No! NO! I was referring to your house, anchored home, breaker panel.
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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04-26-2013, 03:17 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: Escape 21C
New York
Posts: 2,387
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That is what I thought. The trailer's ground & neutral are separate.
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04-26-2013, 03:29 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye
That is what I thought. The trailer's ground & neutral are separate.
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As they are in your house.
Ground is a misunderstood and misused term. In your house the round pin on the 120 Volt outlet and cord is GROUND.
In your trailer that same GROUND is used where 120 appliances are connected to the 120 system.
The so called ground in the 12 volt system, is simply the negative side of the 12 volt system and has nothing to do with GROUND. GROUND = Earth.
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Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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04-26-2013, 03:51 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: Escape 21C
New York
Posts: 2,387
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But in your house they (the ground & neutral) are bonded at the service entrance. They should not be bonded in a trailer's breaker panel, a mistake that some make, resulting in a shock hazard and preventing the trailer from operating when plugged into a GFCI receptacle.
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04-26-2013, 04:26 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Trailer: Scamp
Posts: 7,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye
But in your house they (the ground & neutral) are bonded at the service entrance. They should not be bonded in a trailer's breaker panel, a mistake that some make, resulting in a shock hazard and preventing the trailer from operating when plugged into a GFCI receptacle.
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The safety ground inside the converter is connected to negative 12 Volt line. PERIOD.
That makes them tied together at the trailer. The safety ground is also connected to frame at that point. PERIOD.
Hard to understand???
__________________
Byron & Anne enjoying the everyday Saturday thing.
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04-26-2013, 04:38 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye
.........As to grounding the converter to the frame, NEC code requires at least a #6 wire...
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Why such a big wire? Doesn't it just need to be large enough to throw the circuit breaker? It would seem like 10 gauge would be plenty.
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04-26-2013, 05:07 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Name: Jon
Trailer: Escape 21C
New York
Posts: 2,387
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For trailers our size the run is short enough that a #10 would throw a 30 amp breaker - might be a problem with a larger 50 amp with a longer run...
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04-26-2013, 05:09 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Trailer: No Trailer Yet
Posts: 5,112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Vermilye
For trailers our size the run is short enough that a #10 would throw a 30 amp breaker - might be a problem with a larger 50 amp with a longer run...
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Yea, that would explain it. I forget about 50 honking amp RVs.
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04-26-2013, 06:15 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
Name: Ryan
Trailer: 1979 Scamp 16- side bath
Virginia
Posts: 182
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I've install some AC wiring and plenty of DC wiring in the past, but never together in a system as large as this one. Although everything in my trailer is now wired up and functioning I want to double check some things as a safe guard.
1. I am using the original breaker AC box as a junction box of sorts. The shore power cord is connected to it (back of trailer under dinette bench). Inside of it I hooked some heavy gauge AC line to that which then runs to the converter (front of the trailer). The repurposed original breaker box is grounded to the frame. I would think that would suffice, right?
As a side note- and this may not be "up to code", I also use the original AC breaker box as a junction for 2 AC outlets--- which are branched off the PD 4045 converter. These outlets are not connected to the shore power cord within the box, besides perhaps the ground. Even If this is not up to code-- is it a bad idea?
2. So it sounds like the AC earth-ground and DC negative can both be connected to the frame with no ill effects- aside from possible corrosion issues. Correct?
3. I was under the impression that the standard way to wire the DC circuits in the trailer was to run both NEG and POS leads to each destination (outlet, light,fan, fridge). On the power source side the POS lead goes to the black number coded wires from the converter. Each of these has corresponding fuse. The NEG lead at the power source can all be run to a common bus bar, which is then connected to the frame at a single point-- if not the frame where else would I connect this common NEG bus bar?
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04-26-2013, 06:58 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Name: Randy
Trailer: 1980Trillium 1300
Ontario
Posts: 373
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Ryan, IMO the item 1 and 2 in your post sound OK to me. If one wants to utilize heavy gauge wires, a standard outlet box wouldn't meet the demand. About ground point, in my case, the frame has a total of 3 points of ground which are bolted to the frame: 2 for DC (front at hitch and rear for external battery) and one for combined both AC and DC(electric brakes, converter, main AC breaker) at the middle of frame. Here is my opinion regarding to issue#3 in your post. Same like you, I do not treat frame as an ideal ground. With critical devices or for precision, I ran both negative and positive wires from battery(or common extra positive terminal) to them (such as break controller, voltmeter to monitor battery voltage). It's hard to explain things when I am only at beginning with project with everything is on..sketch. I would test them all before completion. To me, as long as it WORKS and is safe for other adjacent equipments(water tank, sink, gas stove..) then it sounds good. Hopefully I will post my works in details someday....
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