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Old 08-16-2018, 06:14 AM   #41
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lessons learned

Great, so lessons learned are ...

- For others adding a charge wizard to a PD9100 series converter, this WILL increase the maximum charging current dramatically. Check whether the existing wire gauge and fuse that protects it are sufficient for the increased current. If not, upgrade.

- When determining wire gauge and the fuse that protects it, determine the typical maximum operating load, then provide a margin for surge current, growth, etc.

- Use quality components (wire, fuse/fuse holder, etc). (In the case discussed in this thread, the circuit was operating at the maximum current for which it was designed. The fuse melted, and this MAY be because the fuse was inferior quality.)

- The PD9130 charge wizard and the Trimetric TM-2030 equipment appear to be operating correctly, as designed.

Any other lessons learned?
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:33 AM   #42
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Great, so lessons learned are ...

- For others adding a charge wizard to a PD9100 series converter, this WILL increase the maximum charging current dramatically...
..
I'll agree with the rest but have some doubt about this. But its easy enough to confirm. Just unplug your charge wizard (it takes removing one screw), then repeat your test with a battery bank discharged to 60% or so. Observe and report the TriMetric reading.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:07 AM   #43
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I'll agree with the rest but have some doubt about this. But its easy enough to confirm. Just unplug your charge wizard (it takes removing one screw), then repeat your test with a battery bank discharged to 60% or so. Observe and report the TriMetric reading.
Iíll do that for reference here. I wanted the charge wizard not so much for the boost mode, but for the storage mode. Therefore I could keep the egg plugged in 24/7. Also noteworthy is the later model PD converters have the Charge wizard built in to them. Therefore you must plan for the max loads.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:26 AM   #44
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Iíll do that for reference here. I wanted the charge wizard not so much for the boost mode, but for the storage mode. Therefore I could keep the egg plugged in 24/7. Also noteworthy is the later model PD converters have the Charge wizard built in to them. Therefore you must plan for the max loads.
I'll stay subscribed to see the updates.. I would also be curious to see what it does with a single, smaller discharged battery or maybe even a dead or sulfated one if you happen to have one around and share my curiosity.
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:03 AM   #45
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I'll stay subscribed to see the updates.. I would also be curious to see what it does with a single, smaller discharged battery or maybe even a dead or sulfated one if you happen to have one around and share my curiosity.
Stay tuned Gordon I will do the test w/o the wizard. I do have a dead 12v car battery laying around which will not charge I am saving for a core charge turn in. I can try that too without the wizzard. I don't have a smaller one that is dead or I'd like to drain. My worry about not having the wizard attached is it wont reduce for storage mode and it will constantly charge at normal mode. That's not good for battery life. That's why I added the wizard.

Please bear with me a little while on these trials. I just went to the auto store and I walked out with a new fuse holder (30a) and heavy duty butt splices . Although this is NOT my final fix, I need to get her back together VERY soon because we need to use the egg VERY soon! I plan to finish out the season on fully charged batteries. This will keep the wizard from going into boost. Our remaining 2018 camping has no boondocking. All of our camping the remainder of this year is with hookups, so I could even just switch off the battery while plugged into hookups.

But after the busy fall camp season I plan to redo the wiring and fuse to 6ga and 40a. I also added a main cutoff last year so I need to route to that as well. Lastly, I plan to move my shunt to inside the egg instead of in the battery box. I realize the shunt directions say as close to the battery as possible, but I'm hoping 5 feet is close enough? This will greatly clean up the battery box!

In order to do all this I need to tear out all my main closet shelving to get to the converter and wiring! It will be a good slow days work!

Lastly, dumb question, probably very dumb but I dont know....if I upsize the positive to 6 gauge and 40A, am I OK leaving the negative sized as is??
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:30 AM   #46
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both positive and negative conductors should be upsized. even safety grounds, if present, would need to be upsized.
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:29 PM   #47
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both positive and negative conductors should be upsized. even safety grounds, if present, would need to be upsized.
OK Thank you! I'm going replace that fuse holder tonight then limp her (watching carefully) for 2 more months. Then do a big wiring tidy up & upsize project before it goes into storage! I'll post that on my "Joes Eggcamper Journal" in my signature for reference.

I love learning and doing this stuff! Thanks again EVERYBODY for all your help!! Couldn't do all this DIY stuff without you guys!!!
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:20 PM   #48
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re the 14.2-14.4 volt number. a multistage smart charger should only output that voltage for a couple hours, known as the 'absorption stage', then drop to a 13.6-13.8V maintenance trickle charge state. if you keep the battery at 14.4V long term, you'll overcharge it and start boiling off electrolyte.
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Old 08-16-2018, 05:53 PM   #49
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Ok today I replaced the fuse holder with a new 30a max holder littelford brand. Then installed a 30a busman fuse. Good crimps with heavy duty in line connectors.

Same deal. Boost mode putting out 29.5a makes the holder and fuse very hot. Almost too hot to touch.

Here’s the kicker. My egg wiring is big. 10ga I believe maybe 8. But the new (and old) 30a rated fuse holders have orange wire that is 12ga. So I’m reducing wire guage at the holder. Again on normal mode at 15a its cool to touch.

I can’t help but wonder if a 30a max holder and fuse running constant 30a thru it will just plain run hot? Anyway, I’ll be charging on normal mode till I find a 40a holder with bigger gauge wiring. Probably online order.

Until then I’m going camping lol.

Interesting article:

https://www.redarc.com.au/faq-tech-t...d-fuse-holders

From the article: "Solution: Always use good quality fuses and fuse holders. Whilst the popular automotive blade type fuses and holders may be OK at lower currents, Eg 5-10A, for higher currents (20A or more) it is essential to use good quality fuses and fuse holders, for example “Maxifuse”, “Megafuse” or “MTA” Midi fuse style products."
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Old 08-16-2018, 07:40 PM   #50
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"I canít help but wonder if a 30a max holder and fuse running constant 30a thru it will just plain run hot?"

You are running right on the brink. May very well run hot. And 31 amps will blow the fuse. Nobody would ever design a circuit to regularly run current at the maximum wire and fuse rating.

It would be a good idea to use a 40 amp rated fuse holder now and put a 30 amp fuse in it until you put in higher gauge wire, then replace with a 40 amp fuse. Then the fuse holder would run cool and the fuse would run hot.
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:07 AM   #51
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Joe,

FYI, it should be noted that while the fuse MUST be sized to protect the wire, the purpose of this particular fuse is to limit charging current to the batteries. I found that the Trojan guideline is to limit charging current to 10 to 13% of C20. In your case, that would be 10 to 13% of 225 ah, or 22.5 to 29.3 amps, so your 30 amp fuse is a good choice.

But then oops, what happens when you put in a 40 amp fuse?? Its no longer protecting the batteries. Guess that's OK because the charge wizard max current is 30 amps.

John
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Old 08-17-2018, 08:42 AM   #52
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So tonight I'm going to redo everything I did yesterday LOL. I'm going to replace my 30a fuseholder (with 12ga leads), to a 60a MAXI fuse holder (with 8ga leads). Then I will install a 30a MAXI fuse. Then I will do the BOOST test again and see if that gets hot.

I do have 10ga wiring from the charger to the battery (except the fuse holder), and everything I read is 10ga is ok for 30a on a shorter run. It may have a small loss in amps vs 8ga, but that ok. And if the 10ga is rated for the 30a, I probably don't need to upsize my wiring. tbd.....

In the mean time I'll remove the weak link (12ga 30a small fuse holder) out of the picture and replace with the 8ga MAXI fuse holder. Then install the 30A MAXI fuse. It may be good to go then!

Remember my draws never ever exceed 10A (fridge + water pump).

Ill report back after the fuse holder swap! Fun fun LOL.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:07 AM   #53
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good plan

Good plan.

If it were me, I would still upgrade all wire to 6 or 8 gauge at the end of the season so that you are not maxing out the wire, AND upgrade the fuse to 35 amps if the 30 amp fuse runs hot.

Why? Here's a random statement I found on the internet after searching for a few seconds:

"As a rule, no one device or series of devices should draw a continuous load of more than 80 percent of the circuit's available current. For example, a 15-amp circuit at 120 volts produces a maximum of 1,800 watts. No more than 1,440 of that should be used continuously. This allows for power surges and prevents the circuit breaker from tripping."
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:10 AM   #54
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"It may have a small loss in amps vs 8ga, but that ok."

This is not what happens. There is no loss in amps, but instead the wire and fuse overheat.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:17 AM   #55
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Got ya John, Thank you!! I was looking at the 3% vs 10% loss in the table, and my run still falls into the 3% range. So that's comforting. BUT - I fully agree - this fall I'll upsize it for sure. Its an easy smaller fun project!

You think I hit the record for a post thread length about a fuse LOL. Kidding, but man was this a great thread (for me anyway)!!!
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:28 AM   #56
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Joe, the voltage drops across the circuit, but the current does not.
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Old 08-17-2018, 12:02 PM   #57
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Joe, the voltage drops across the circuit, but the current does not.
for a constant impedance load, if you have a given source voltage, and increase the resistance, the current drops too.

volts = amps * ohms
amps = volts / ohms (same thing)

now, yeah, battery charging is a bit tricky because a battery is a non-linear load, its not a constant resistance, rather it changes with the charge state.

but, say you have a 14V output charger, connected to a 0.5 ohm battery, this will draw 28 amps. now, if you add 0.1 ohms in the wiring, the total impedance is now 0.6 ohms, so it will only draw 23 amps... but worse, the battery will only see 11.7 volts, because of the 2.3 volt drop across that 0.1 ohm wiring at 23 amps. and that 23 amps at 0.1 ohms will be generating 52 watts of heat in the cable, and 50 watts is quite a bit of heat.

^^ those are extreme values, realistically, the voltage drop in the wiring is much less than this, but it still can be significant.
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Old 08-17-2018, 12:23 PM   #58
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OK duh. And I'm an EE! (edit: Joe, I apologize for the misinformation.)
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Old 08-17-2018, 12:27 PM   #59
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^^ those are extreme values, realistically, the voltage drop in the wiring is much less than this, but it still can be significant.

Except that when the battery is fully charged, the current should drop to nearly zero, and the loss across the introduced resistance will also fall to nearly zero. So the battery will still get a full charge, eventually. This is not the case with those diode style battery idolators, 0.7V will always be lost across a forward biased diode.
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Old 08-17-2018, 01:02 PM   #60
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Except that when the battery is fully charged, the current should drop to nearly zero, and the loss across the introduced resistance will also fall to nearly zero. So the battery will still get a full charge, eventually. This is not the case with those diode style battery idolators, 0.7V will always be lost across a forward biased diode.
on a 100AH battery thats fully charged, there's still an amp or so residual leakage.
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