I need a battery (I think)

[John in Santa Cruz]

silicon dioxide is in fact quartz, and the major component of glass. which is what is in an AGM, absorbed glass mat, battery. also what is in a gel battery, as the 'gel' is fine silicone dioxide + sulfuric acid.

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by steve67

Does anyone have any experience with a Silicon Dioxide Battery? I understand they are better in climates where a cold weather charge may be necessary. Lithium do not like the cold when charging. I need a battery and am considering my options.

We purchased our SiO2 260 ah batteries last February. They replaced our AGM batteries, so the weight is identical, but we don't have a weight problem. SiO2 is not a conventional AGM battery, but since it is lead acid has similarities.

I see LiFePO4 as an interm solution, similar to compact fluorescent light bulbs until LED bulbs became cost effective. There are many problems with lithiums I didn't want to deal with. SiO2's don't need a new WFCO converter/charger, nor need DC-DC installed and properly configured in my tow vehicle, for a savings of $3-700, depending on choice.

200 ah's of Battleborns were going to cost $1,700 with another $500 or so for a new replacement charger and DC to DC, so $2,200. We purchased our 260 ah Soneil batteries for $1,000 shipped to a Tucson UPS drop point, and they were installed while we were at Rincon West RV Resort on the edge of Tucson.

We also live in Minnesota, and today the high is to be 6 F. Later this month we leave for the southwest and our camper is not near a power post, so it's battery only. The day before we leave we will start the furnace and heat to 50 F until we reach Kansas City where we'll sleep for the night.

It's amazing how ill-informed people on various forums are about SiO2 batteries. They charge significantly faster than our AGMs charged, can easily be discharged to 20%SOC, and don't sulfate. For the first six months we only had 170 watts on the roof and except for one campsite in Cochise National Monument where we parked underneath the trees, we haven't needed our portable 100 watt panel. We use about 40 ah's a day in the winter months, with 20 ah's of the 40 for our furnace.

Because of shading problems in Minnesota seven months of the year, we added 300 watts to the roof of our Escape.

Last summer, when we camped for a week in heavy shade, the batteries used 115 of the 260 available ah's. A day in the sun the batteries were 95% full and 100% the next day.

Our WFCO has been disconnected since last February and we have no problems with our solar keeping the batteries full.

SiO2's are not for everyone. People will look cross-eyed at you and debate your choice, so I rarely post about them. At $1,000 vs $2,200 they cost about 45% of a quality lithium install. We chose to use the $1,200 difference to install those extra 300 watts on the roof ($5-600), so the $600 remaining was used to install a 1,500 watt inverter ($350 total). I'm hoping to get 5 or more years of use and should, but . . .

I understand why people here purchase LiFePO4 and have no qualms about their choice. TETO!

Enjoy,

Perry

[John in Santa Cruz]

SOK 12V 200AH Lithium, very highly rated, are $1050 currently. 2600 watt hours, nearly entirely usable. They are just about GC2 sized, so double the energy density per volume, but half the weight of a golf cart batt.

your description of the SiO2 sounds like a gel battery to me. these use a silica + acid paste as their electrolyte. Not sure how they can charge any faster at the same current/voltage profile your existing converter outputs, but indeed, gel batteries can be charged at higher current rates than regular lead-acid.

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

SOK 12V 200AH Lithium, very highly rated, are $1050 currently. 2600 watt hours, nearly entirely usable. They are just about GC2 sized, so double the energy density per volume, but half the weight of a golf cart batt.

your description of the SiO2 sounds like a gel battery to me. these use a silica + acid paste as their electrolyte. Not sure how they can charge any faster at the same current/voltage profile your existing converter outputs, but indeed, gel batteries can be charged at higher current rates than regular lead-acid.

For those who want LiFePO4 the SOK is a viable gamble.

SiO2 is not gel, but lead crystal, however you know that.

If you'd have read my post you would see I don't use or need the WFCO charger.

Enjoy,

Perry

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

For those who want LiFePO4 the SOK is a viable gamble.

SiO2 is not gel, but lead crystal, however you know that.

If you'd have read my post you would see I don't use or need the WFCO charger.

so you knocked lithium for requiring* a $250 charger replacement, then went ahead and replaced your charger?

btw, "Lead Crystal(tm)" is simply a marketing trademark, noise signifying nothing. metallic lead doesn't crystalize, it melts at 621 degrees F, and solidifies below that into a soft metal, its generally cast or stamped into shapes such as battery plates. Everything I read about your Soleil batteries that is not BS marketing hype says to me they are gel cell batteries, same as Trojan and others have made for years.


* you actually can use LFP just fine with the stock charger, the lithium chargers will just charge them faster. LFP will achieve 95% or better charge with 13.8V

[jwcolby123]

I find it suspicious when I can't find any reasonably in-depth information about anything, regardless of the subject. Battery university doesn't address SiO2 specifically. Bits and pieces, mostly from distributors out on google. And what there is indicates a half dozen small players with various different ideas / implementations. IMHO this tends to indicate immature technology.



OTOH there are tomes about lead acid in general, glass mat, gell, lithium ion, LiFEPO4 etc.



In the end, it is up to each of us to decide what makes sense for ourselves. Extreme cold is not a primary consideration for the vast majority of us I would guess, and certainly not for me. LiFePO4 is a well understood and very reliable technology, which I decided was best for my own situation. I certainly don't buy into the 'battery born or nothing' mindset so the 'typical' cost numbers don't really apply to me.

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

so you knocked lithium for requiring* a $250 charger replacement, then went ahead and replaced your charger?

btw, "Lead Crystal(tm)" is simply a marketing trademark, noise signifying nothing. metallic lead doesn't crystalize, it melts at 621 degrees F, and solidifies below that into a soft metal, its generally cast or stamped into shapes such as battery plates. Everything I read about your Soleil batteries that is not BS marketing hype says to me they are gel cell batteries, same as Trojan and others have made for years.


* you actually can use LFP just fine with the stock charger, the lithium chargers will just charge them faster. LFP will achieve 95% or better charge with 13.8V

Only the biased and/or uninformed will agree with you, but that's your choice. Rather than just shoot from the hip, I suggest you Google "Lead Crystal vs Gel batteries" and get yourself an education before going any further. I've yet to find one that puts lead crystal in the same category as gel batteries, although if one looks hard enough one can always be found. There's plenty of articles besides those by Azimuth Solar. I try to research before making false claims.

I replaced our failed WFCO charger/converter with a identical, "free" WFCO converter/charger that Oldwave had sitting around after installing a new charger for his LiFePO4 batteries. I did pay around $30 for shipping though, a far cry from the $250 you implied I paid.

After installing the free replacement WFCO, I pulled the two reverse polarity fuses so it won't work until I either decide we need to charge at the pole or sell our camper so the new owner can use the charger. Again, we have no problem keeping our 260 ah's of SiO2 batteries full with solar alone.

There are numerous companies that suggest not charging LiFePO4 with a standard charger. I researched that too and they're easy to find.

In my post above I stated, "I understand why people here purchase LiFePO4 and have no qualms about their choice. TETO!" I'm not trying to convince anyone that SiO2 is always better, but for us it's a better option. I made my choice and I'm comfortable with the decision. Steve67 asked the question and I answered.

Enjoy,

Perry

[steve67]

Well, I've done something of an about face. The silicon dioxide battery I ordered got lost in shipping and I had to cancel it and reorder. I was really attracted to weight advantage of the Lithium battery and figured I could always install it inside our Boler where is would be warmer on the colder days... So I ordered a Lithium.

[jwcolby123]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

Rather than just shoot from the hip, I suggest you Google "Lead Crystal vs Gel batteries" and get yourself an education before going any further.

Well I googled exactly what you suggested. "Lead Crystal vs Gell batteries", literally that. What I found basically suggests that a "lead crystal" battery is a lead acid battery where the acid is a new "patented" formula and it is this stuff that is the "crystal", certainly not the lead part of the battery.

https://www.amae.net.au/2018/11/07/d...es-comparison/

I have to say I'm not impressed. First of all the comparison is wonky. Temperature for Lead Crystal is 20degrees c lower. OK.

Usage life is 8-12 years vs 5-6 for Lithium. What????

80% Discharge Cycle @ 25°C is 1300-1500 vs >2000 for Lithium. Hmmmm and the lead crystal lasts twice as long? Hmmmm...

Weight 28kg vs 16 kg for Lithium. Sounds like a lead battery to me.

Shelf life 24 months vs 12 for the Lithium. I have read various figures for LiFePo4, anywhere from 2% / month to 5% / month.

Per https://www.canbat.com/how-to-store-lifepo4-batteries/

"LiFePO4 batteries have a low self-discharge rate of 2% a month. This means that when a lithium battery is stored, it’ll lose 2% of its charge capacity every month. In order to prevent a higher rate of discharge, we recommend disconnecting all power draw from your batteries. When you store LiFePO4 batteries, it is important that you store them with a state of charge (SOC) of 50% or higher. A higher state of charge is recommended when storing for an extended period of time. If you want the battery to retain a good level of charge after the storage period is over, you should charge them to 100% and store them in that fully charged state."

If this is true, then fully charged a LiFePo4 battery would store for approximately 50 months (at the correct temperature).

So... as I said I'm not impressed. It appears that the Lead crystal gets you an additional 20 degrees on the cold end. Not much else.

There are numerous companies that suggest not charging LiFePO4 with a standard charger. I researched that too and they're easy to find.

Enjoy,

Perry

The 'Gold Standard' at least around these parts is Battle Born and they say that a normal old lead battery charger works just fine for LiFePo4. It is not optimum, which is different from 'will damage something'.

Perry, I really couldn't care less what anyone chooses. That said I do think it is useful to have good solid info so that the choices can be good ones. If you have any good solid info on whatever this 'lead crystal' battery is please link to what you are going on. I am not finding much useful, and I did look. Looks like some kind of gel lead battery where the gel is a crystal acid something or another. It doesn't specifically say it is a glass mat kinda thing. It also doesn't say it is a liquid. It also doesn't say it is a gel. So we are left with 'what is it' which no one is saying except that it is patented. The whole damned world is patented so that doesn't impress me too much.


So what do you know that we don't?

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by jwcolby123

So what do you know that we don't?

I guess I have better searching skills than you do, however I have nothing to prove, but apparently you do. I also don't need to "impress" you, and even you had many errors in your post.

I do know that so far SiO2 works like it should. Lead crystal/SiO2 charges below freezing, doesn't need a DC-DC, needs no special WFCO/stand-alone charger for proper balancing, and provides power for the camper at -20 F. Just those were enough for me.

That's the only arguments I feel like making, especially for those who believe lithium is the only way to go with their mind already made up. You have lithium, so enjoy lithium, and that's fine with me, but I don't have the same needs. I bought a battery that meets our needs, something LiFePO4 didn't do last January, and except for a heated battery available now, still doesn't meet our needs. However if these batteries fail I'll have an open mind and consider other choices.

Enjoy,

Perry

[jwcolby123]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

I guess I have better searching skills than you do, however I have nothing to prove, but apparently you do. I also don't need to "impress" you, and even you had many errors in your post.

I do know that so far SiO2 works like it should. Lead crystal/SiO2 charges below freezing, doesn't need a DC-DC, needs no special WFCO/stand-alone charger for proper balancing, and provides power for the camper at -20 F. Just those were enough for me.

That's the only arguments I feel like making, especially for those who believe lithium is the only way to go with their mind already made up. You have lithium, so enjoy lithium, and that's fine with me, but I don't have the same needs. I bought a battery that meets our needs, something LiFePO4 didn't do last January, and except for a heated battery available now, still doesn't meet our needs. However if these batteries fail I'll have an open mind and consider other choices.

Enjoy,

Perry

Lol just wow. You sound a little defensive. I guess you do have better search skills. Or maybe you just wanted to buy what you wanted to buy? As I said, I could care less. I looked back when you originally discussed this stuff. Didn't find jack. Searched again. Didn't find jack. You aren't throwing up any links to educate us. Telling us to educate ourselves before we... yada yada yada. I am not finding jack. You do seem rather determined to tell us all 'bout how good this is. But nothing to see here folks.

Just wow.

Your responses or lack thereof notwithstanding, I found this on Youtube and it surely sounds like a fantastic lead acid battery.

https://youtu.be/O45eLd5YotM

Leads one to wonder why there isn't more info out there. This specific test was 8 years ago.

I have heard rumors of these things but not much more. Seems they are in fact real and it appears that they really do what they claim. Impressive. N of 1 but still!!!

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by jwcolby123

Lol just wow. You sound a little defensive. I guess you do have better search skills. Or maybe you just wanted to buy what you wanted to buy? As I said, I could care less. I looked back when you originally discussed this stuff. Didn't find jack. Searched again. Didn't find jack. You aren't throwing up any links to educate us. Telling us to educate ourselves before we... yada yada yada. I am not finding jack. You do seem rather determined to tell us all 'bout how good this is. But nothing to see here folks.
Just wow.

LOL!

Funny, those who have contacted me don't have your issues with me or them surfing to find answers. You believe what you want to believe, and it's obvious that's all you do. SiO2 is not for everyone, and certainly not for you, but your mind is closed when it comes to the reasoning behind our decision.

One of my best friends has a 100ah Battleborn in his NuCamp 350 Boondock camper, recommended by me, because it met his needs. Another friend is on his 7th year with Lifeline AGM batteries in his Airstream, and he's going to replace them with another Lifeline set when they finally do fail, because they work for him.

SiO2 is a lead acid battery with the lowest use of sulfuric acid (lower than gel) in a silicon paste.
SiO2 battery can and is used in low temperatures (-18 F the other morning).
SiO2 can be charged below freezing.
SiO2 doesn't need a DC-DC charger to protect the alternator.
SiO2 doesn't need a special charger, or needs to balance cells.
SiO2 can deliver power at -20F.
SiO2 should get us 4-6 years of use, and that's fine with us.

You would have found the above if you had chosen, but I don't "prove" to those who don't care. Not everyone needs LiFePO4, but even less benefit from SiO2. One needs to do their own homework.

Finally, all manufacturers, including Battleborn, have advertising writers making unproven claims. I don't believe everything I read and have seen the recommendations for LiFePO4 change as evidence accumulates. Caveat Emptor!

Enjoy,

Perry

[John in Santa Cruz]

its just that I expect a good battery would have an actual datasheet like this,
https://b2b-api.panasonic.eu/file_st...version/235437

with hard facts. and all I find on 'SiO2' is a bunch of marketing claims.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

If you wish you can read similar data on the Azimuth Solar web site.

all I found was regurgitated marketing claims, nothing resembling an actual datasheet such as the Panasonic one I posted for a random AGM battery. ONE poorly written science paper from Pakistan, which devoted all of a short paragraph on Lead Crystal (aka SiO2), and didn't even mention LiFePO4, and did NOT perform any sort of controlled tests comparing the multiple battery types... and most of what was in this article was again regurgitated marketing claims. Their experiment compared two batteries, yet they didn't even give the specifications for one of them, they only present a single charge/discharge cycle, and then they jump to conclusions not supported by any evidence they presented. I've seen better research experiments at high school science fairs.

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by alan H

Like I said this used to be a trailer friendly site… and as far as this thread…. I’m out

As far as I know, a battery is an important element of a trailer, so I am open to discussions on the topic.
From what I've read so far, for my application, I'm sticking with my Trojan lead acid deep cycle battery.

[John in Santa Cruz]

again, "LeadCrystal(TM)" "SiO2(tm)" batteries are a gel cell, nothing I've seen hints at anything else. The "gel" in a gel cell is a slurry of Silca (SiO2) and sulfuric acid.

maybe they are an improved gel cell, so far nothing I've seen convinces me of that except marketing claims unsupported by any actual testing data.

The Trojan Group 31 Gel deep discharge is limited to C8 charging, so max 100/8 = 12.5 Amps. Trojan's AGM batteries are recommended for C5 charge rates, or 20 amps for a 100AH. Its quite possible that an alternative gel cell design could support a faster charge rate.

what mostly bugs me is how the sole manufacturer of these is trying to pretend these aren't lead-acid, that they are something completely different.

[jwcolby123]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

again, "LeadCrystal(TM)" "SiO2(tm)" batteries are a gel cell, nothing I've seen hints at anything else. The "gel" in a gel cell is a slurry of Silca (SiO2) and sulfuric acid.

I posted a link to a youtube video (N of one I am fully aware, but still it's something) where a guy claims to have tested this thing against a regular LA battery. He mentioned completely draining the battery and fully recharging it.

I only watched it once but I seem to remember he says he did so a couple of hundred times. The normal LA battery failed after a small handful of times whereas the "crystal" battery fully recharged several hundred times. It sounded like he did not test it until it died however. If I had to guess he eventually decided to actually use the battery.
Sadly he did absolutely no testing at very low temperatures so we still don't have that part of the puzzle.

maybe they are an improved gel cell, so far nothing I've seen convinces me of that except marketing claims unsupported by any actual testing data.

The Trojan Group 31 Gel deep discharge is limited to C8 charging, so max 100/8 = 12.5 Amps. Trojan's AGM batteries are recommended for C5 charge rates, or 20 amps for a 100AH. Its quite possible that an alternative gel cell design could support a faster charge rate.

It actually sounds like the electrolyte is a dry paste or something. Not that we know of course. Everything is just a guess since I am not finding any testing videos or reports where the battery is tested till it dies and then torn apart to examine the guts. And I am not going to do that of course. Maybe Will Prowse could be persuaded to do that?

what mostly bugs me is how the sole manufacturer of these is trying to pretend these aren't lead-acid, that they are something completely different.

I'm with you on this, and this is precisely what makes the whole thing so suspicious. In the absence of solid evidence to the contrary, they obviously are lead acid. There is no doubt they are lead. Every lead battery I know uses acid. There are several variants on how the acid is contained - water, gel, absorbed glass mat etc. This may be none of the above but it is lead acid.

[Motoboss]

I’m with Glen Baglo, I enjoy the “push and shove” of this thread. I’m considering a Li battery at some point and like to see other comparable alternatives. BUT, without “proof” or at least a spec sheet I see no validity in some claims and therefore disregard useage.

Keep at it.