Lithium upgrade on 2023 Casita Independence

[indysafe317]

I have filtered through and read many posts, I know there are a lot and from what I understand the newer 2022 and later Casitas have the Power Management Center that allows for Lithium charging, If that is the case, can I simply change out the AGM for Lithium. I understand that the tow vehicle will not charge it very efficiently but will it hurt the alternator at all and is that all that needs to be done if I don't want to charge off my Tow.

I would love to hear from someone that has actually done it instead of theory but I'll take that as well.

[hghsl]

[QUOTE=indysafe317;854429]I have filtered through and read many posts, I know there are a lot and from what I understand the newer 2022 and later Casitas have the Power Management Center that allows for Lithium charging, If that is the case, can I simply change out the AGM for Lithium. I understand that the tow vehicle will not charge it very efficiently but will it hurt the alternator at all and is that all that needs to be done if I don't want


I think your would need a dc to dc charge, I have not done one yet, but this would work for you, I have 38 years experience working with starting and charging systems.

If you TV has a smart charging system you more than likely would have to add a ignition trigger wire also, to turn on the charger while driving.



https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Batter...s%2C139&sr=8-1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKc-325LWrQ

[indysafe317]

[QUOTE=hghsl;854431]

Originally Posted by indysafe317

I have filtered through and read many posts, I know there are a lot and from what I understand the newer 2022 and later Casitas have the Power Management Center that allows for Lithium charging, If that is the case, can I simply change out the AGM for Lithium. I understand that the tow vehicle will not charge it very efficiently but will it hurt the alternator at all and is that all that needs to be done if I don't want


I think you would need a dc to dc charge, I have not done one yet, but this would work for you, I have 38 years experience working with starting and charging systems.

If you TV has a smart charging system you more than likely would have to add a ignition trigger wire also, to turn on the charger while driving.



https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Batter...s%2C139&sr=8-1

I've heard both I might and might not, If I did not put in a DC/DC charger, my understanding is that it just wont charge efficiently if much at all, which I am ok with. I just don't want to damage the tow vehicle system at all. Will be a 2022 F150.

I've been told that the only downside is that it will not effectively charge the Lithium battery in the Camper which I am ok with, does that sound right.

[hghsl]

[QUOTE=indysafe317;854432]

Originally Posted by hghsl

I've heard both I might and might not, If I did not put in a DC/DC charger, my understanding is that it just wont charge efficiently if much at all, which I am ok with. I just don't want to damage the tow vehicle system at all. Will be a 2022 F150.

I've been told that the only downside is that it will not effectively charge the Lithium battery in the Camper which I am ok with, does that sound right.

This video will show you what you are up against trying to charge with a standard TV alternator. Unlike lead acid batteries, lithium batteries charge at a high rate during the whole charge cycle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug

[Raspy]

[QUOTE=hghsl;854435]

Originally Posted by indysafe317

This video will show you what you are up against trying to charge with a standard TV alternator. Unlike lead acid batteries, lithium batteries charge at a high rate during the whole charge cycle.

Please don't post that bogus video! Look into it further to understand why, instead of scaring people. That video is marketing hype that has done way more harm than good.

If you install a DC-DC charger, you will charge the lithiums correctly and there will be zero problems with the truck alternator. Zero.

An excellent way to power the DC-DC charger is with an Anderson plug and wires directly from the tow battery, with a marine circuit breaker. Typically #6 or #4 wires are used. With this you can easily get 30 amps to the house batteries by mounting the DC-DC charger in the trailer near the batteries. It's impossible to damage a truck alternator with a 30 amp load. Victron makes a very nice DC-DC charger that senses voltage from the truck and turns on or off automatically. No switching required.

It is possible to charge the lithiums directly, but not recommended, as they do not need a float charge and they do not want more than 14.6 volts. I've done it and it works, but again, not recommended as a general practice.

I don't know what charger you have, but modern Progressive Dynamics chargers can be converted to charge lithiums. A good source of information is to call Battle Born and ask them about this.

[ShelbyM]

AFAIK the Li battery sucking the alternator to death scenario only exists on youtube.

[indysafe317]

[QUOTE=Raspy;854437]

Originally Posted by hghsl

Please don't post that bogus video! Look into it further to understand why, instead of scaring people. That video is marketing hype that has done way more harm than good.

If you install a DC-DC charger, you will charge the lithiums correctly and there will be zero problems with the truck alternator. Zero.

An excellent way to power the DC-DC charger is with an Anderson plug and wires directly from the tow battery, with a marine circuit breaker. Typically #6 or #4 wires are used. With this you can easily get 30 amps to the house batteries by mounting the DC-DC charger in the trailer near the batteries. It's impossible to damage a truck alternator with a 30 amp load. Victron makes a very nice DC-DC charger that senses voltage from the truck and turns on or off automatically. No switching required.

It is possible to charge the lithiums directly, but not recommended, as they do not need a float charge and they do not want more than 14.6 volts. I've done it and it works, but again, not recommended as a general practice.

I don't know what charger you have, but modern Progressive Dynamics chargers can be converted to charge lithiums. A good source of information is to call Battle Born and ask them about this.

If I install that way, Isn't the 7 pin connector still providing a charge as well

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by indysafe317

I've heard both I might and might not, If I did not put in a DC/DC charger, my understanding is that it just wont charge efficiently if much at all, which I am ok with. I just don't want to damage the tow vehicle system at all. Will be a 2022 F150.

I've been told that the only downside is that it will not effectively charge the Lithium battery in the Camper which I am ok with, does that sound right.

In January I installed two 100 ah SOK in our new-to-us Bigfoot. Since we have a 2019 Ford F-150 with a “smart” alternator, the alternator only puts out 50 watts, or about 4 amps an hour. Ford told me that with their alternator we only need a DC-DC charger to charge at more than 50 watts and not to worry about ruining the alternator. Apparently it senses the wire size. We have a Victron BMV-712 battery monitor and have found out that 50 watts (about 4 amps) is what we get.

So far, in the two months of ownership, traveling around Arizona and New Mexico, our 160 watt roof panel and 100 watt portable have kept the batteries charged. About one out of 4 days we see 100% charge on the lithiums, but with lithiums they don’t need to be fully charged every day.

For the first time in over three weeks we’re at an electric site for a week, but then we’ll be without shore power for at least three or more weeks till we get home around April 15.

When we get home I’ll be installing an additional 400 watts on the roof and, since we’ll have plenty of charge power, as well as 200 ah’s of batteries, a switch to shut off charging from the F150 will be added.

My suggestions is to go without the DC-DC charger and see how that works for you, but to see I’d install a Victron BMV-712, however I advise everyone to install the 712. You can always add the DC-DC later.

Food for thought,

Perry

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by ShelbyM

AFAIK the Li battery sucking the alternator to death scenario only exists on youtube.

Yep.

[Raspy]

[QUOTE=indysafe317;854439]

Originally Posted by Raspy

If I install that way, Isn't the 7 pin connector still providing a charge as well

The seven pin hot wire will provide power, but how much? I don't know the size of that wire in your rig, the length, or the power strategy of your vehicle computer. But it's safe to say, it will not perform like an Anderson plug will. For instance, the Victron 30 amp dc-dc charger is designed to have a 60 amp circuit breaker in the power circuit from the truck. It's likely your seven pin wire is only a #12, or maybe a #10 (20 or 30 amp max amperage).

You could maybe go to a smaller dc-dc charger to compensate, but that would take much longer to charge. If you are driving many miles every day, it might be viable, but charging quickly is important to avoid excessive run times. The beauty of lithium is the added capacity over lead acid, so taking advantage of that capacity is best done with a proper size charger.

Having solar is great for working alongside the dc-dc charger, where one can make up for the other's lack of capacity when needed.

[indysafe317]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

In January I installed two 100 ah SOK in our new-to-us Bigfoot. Since we have a 2019 Ford F-150 with a “smart” alternator, the alternator only puts out 50 watts, or about 4 amps an hour. Ford told me that with their alternator we only need a DC-DC charger to charge at more than 50 watts and not to worry about ruining the alternator. Apparently it senses the wire size. We have a Victron BMV-712 battery monitor and have found out that 50 watts (about 4 amps) is what we get.

So far, in the two months of ownership, traveling around Arizona and New Mexico, our 160 watt roof panel and 100 watt portable have kept the batteries charged. About one out of 4 days we see 100% charge on the lithiums, but with lithiums they don’t need to be fully charged every day.

For the first time in over three weeks we’re at an electric site for a week, but then we’ll be without shore power for at least three or more weeks till we get home around April 15.

When we get home I’ll be installing an additional 400 watts on the roof and, since we’ll have plenty of charge power, as well as 200 ah’s of batteries, a switch to shut off charging from the F150 will be added.

My suggestions is to go without the DC-DC charger and see how that works for you, but to see I’d install a Victron BMV-712, however I advise everyone to install the 712. You can always add the DC-DC later.

Food for thought,

Perry

Awesome, that's kind of what I'm looking for. I do not believe I need a DC/DC charger, because we usually do not boon-dock and if we do, it's only for a day or so and we have solar power and a generator so all I'm worried about is not burning up the alternator. I have read several comments that seem to back up the claim that because of the wire size and how the 7 pin works, it simply doesn't draw that much power from the alternator.

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by Raspy

Please don't post that bogus video! Look into it further to understand why, instead of scaring people. That video is marketing hype that has done way more harm than good.

Yup, lots of flaws. First, an old standard alternator will probably burn up under their conditions. Many of today’s vehicles have “smart” alternators.

Then they run the electric motor at a high speed causing more overcharging. We don’t run our F150 at redline.

As I said in my previous post, Ford told me our alternator will limit the output according to the wire size, and a proper BMS should limit the input at the high end.

Food for thought,

Perry

[oldwave]

I added the victron smart dc to dc charger, 18 amp version. This was what Am solar recommended that if no dedicated cable from the cab of the truck was added. The device turns off when it detects the engine is not running. This eliminates the possibility of a deeply discharged lithium battery from drawing your tow vehicles start battery, obviously that can be done with a switch or a hardwired relay. And again if you leave the tow vehicle connected. The lower resistance in the lithium could drain your starter battery under the right conditions. My 7 pin wire is 10 gauge from my Ram with an upgraded alternator, so 18 amps is an appropriate sized dc to dc. The device wasn’t expensive and it compensates fro the voltage loss of the long wire run to provide the proper charging current. I have 300 watts on the roof of solar. It augments that. I’d expect to get around 10 amps of charging. By the way the alternator demonstration by victron was meant for boat owners who have an alternator that would run at lower rpm’s for extended time, less so for tow vehicles that do not idle for extended period of times. It’s a valid concern. Victron is a sophisticated and research driven company that sells premium products and not in the business of scare tactics. I have been studying their products at length and their training videos. I have all victron in my camper except for the batteries. I’m pleased. Plenty of opinions out there and options. I would say if there is not a lot of boon docking in the op’s use lithium may not always be the best choice.

By the way Explorist Life web site and YouTube channel has a wealth of information on wire and fuse sizing, design and best practices. If you do go Litium I recommend that resource.

[oldwave]

https://youtu.be/dzU_pQFa19s

Here is solid info on alternator charging. Solid information rather than various opinions. Worth a watch. Obviously Victron centric but good info.

[Sugarhillctd]

Newby to this forum and late to this thread, but maybe the OP will see this.

We brought our new 2023 Casita Spirit home about 6 weeks ago.

As far as Casita supplying a power converter that will charge either lead acid or lithium, well yes, sort of.

The supplied WFCO8955-AD can be changed to charge a LiPo battery but others have had differing results in the process. It requires that a lithium battery that is depleted to at least 50% or less be used for the power center to sense the need to switch over to the higher charge profile.

So I would have had to buy a new LiPo battery and drain it down past 50% to have the converter know what to do.

WFCO states that they changed from a unit where there there is a simple switch to the -AD model so that people wouldn't switch it to the wrong setting. WHAT?

So this week I replaced the 89955-AD with a WFCO 8955LiS, the unit that has the simple switch.

Simple. Done.

[vwbob]

Hi, another Newcomer to this thread here:

I have a 2022 Casita SD with an 2020 F150 TV.

I just checked and my Casita has the WFCO8955-AD, I would love to just replace my factory AGM with a Lithium. My understanding is this will 'automatically' use the correct charging cycle and my f150 has a 'smart' altenator so.....

New to this folks so help me out; what are the advantages and disadvantages of the above plan?

We boondock about 50% of the time - love Vermont State Parks!

Bob & Jo

[Sugarhillctd]

Hi Bob,

The 8955-AD will KIND-OF automatically change from the lead acid/AGM to the lithium charging profile if the lithium battery is run down to less than 50% capacity before it is connected to the trailer..

From various sources I have read that the converter needs to sense the higher rate that the LiPo battery charges in order to know what voltage is needed to "fill" the battery then change to the Lithium profile. I have read of more than one person who could not get it to change over. Operator error?

See my post right above yours.

Good luck!

[indysafe317]

I called the company because I was having problems getting it to "auto" detect. They advised me to let the lithium drain all the way down which I did, At that point it auto detected and switched over to lithium charging profile, I tried 50, 40, 30 percent and it didn't work until I took it down to 0. Works fine now and is on the lithium charging cycle. 2023 Independence Deluxe.

Originally Posted by vwbob

Hi, another Newcomer to this thread here:

I have a 2022 Casita SD with an 2020 F150 TV.

I just checked and my Casita has the WFCO8955-AD, I would love to just replace my factory AGM with a Lithium. My understanding is this will 'automatically' use the correct charging cycle and my f150 has a 'smart' altenator so.....

New to this folks so help me out; what are the advantages and disadvantages of the above plan?

We boondock about 50% of the time - love Vermont State Parks!

Bob & Jo

[Sugarhillctd]

Questions regarding running a Lithium battery down to 0% have answers that range from no problems at all to do not do it.

If a LiPo battery has a BMS then it is most likely not going to cause damage when drained completely. If not there can be damage to the lithium inside.

Who said this RV electrical modification stuff is simple?

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by Sugarhillctd

Questions regarding running a Lithium battery down to 0% have answers that range from no problems at all to do not do it.

If a LiPo battery has a BMS then it is most likely not going to cause damage when drained completely. If not there can be damage to the lithium inside.

Who said this RV electrical modification stuff is simple?

To help simplify the answer to this question, remember that we don't have complete control over the charging and discharging of lithium batteries in our campers. They all have internal Battery Monitoring Systems, BMS, that manage them.

So discharging to "zero" is not the same as discharging a lead acid battery to zero. With lithium you can only discharge it to where the BMS disconnects it to protect it. That happens at about 3 volts. Same in cold weather. Below 32 degrees internal battery temperature, the BMS will not allow the battery to be charged, but it can still be discharged down to about -4 degrees. If you always run the battery down to the cutoff point, it will shorten the battery's lifespan. Proper battery care and respect for it mean you will not be continuously pushing it to the limit and depending on the BMS to save it.

A properly sized battery and charging system means you will not likely be very much below about 25% or so. Getting down to that point means there is something special happening, extended poor weather, very high power usage, or something. And it means it is time to be careful or you'll end up with nothing. I start watching carefully when I get below 50%. Watch for general trends in the charge level. For instance has it been trending down for several days? Make sure the solar is working, make sure you are not wasting power on parasitic loads like leaving the inverter on stand by, or leaving the heat on during the day, or running Starling when not needed, or charging the electric bike too much in one day, or having the 12 volt fridge thermostat turned to a very cold setting, etc. Watch the battery monitor like you do the gas gauge in the truck, and keep in mind that the sun will not be up until morning.