Possible to go 12v only?

[Cathi]

Originally Posted by Bster13

When I say appliances, it's mostly electronics I suppose... android smartphone, android tablet, camera, etc. Probably a fan to move some air as well.

I am thinking of a 16ft Scamp/Casita with a 250 watt panel and a battery or two(obviously I have not calculated my actual load needs and I'm very new to this).

I didn't realize a fan on a heater (or using a 12v fan during the summer?) would drain the batteries significantly. Could I keep the heater & fan off and just use a Heater Buddy (http://tinyurl.com/oc25ram) in such a small space?

A Maxx fan is excellent to remove a good deal of heat from a trailer and it does not use a lot of power but depends on what you have as to how much you can use it. 12V fans are also available.

With a 150-watt solar panel and two 6-volt batteries, you can run anything but the A/C. Maxx fan, no problem. High-draw items such as a hair dryer on low or maybe medium or a microwave can be run for short periods with a 1500-watt inverter or greater.

[Timber Wolf]

I like my A/C and "need" it to enjoy camping a lot of the time (summers, kid out of school) I have available to actually go. As to inverters, remember that for some things direct 12V power supplies are available. For instance, there is a 12V to 19.2V (I think) inverter for my laptop that would be more efficient than 12V to 120V back down to 19.2V. May or may not make a difference but is another way to go.

[Mike Magee]

The device one finds in most trailers is called a CONverter. It takes your shore power and I think your 12V charge line from the tow vehicle, and it sends out both 120V (to appliances that need it) and12V (to the lights and to charge the battery). It's very useful. I would not recommend deleting it from the trailer build, if for no other reason than the enhancement in resale value (hardly anyone would want a travel trailer without a converter).

On the other hand, an INverter is a transformer device you run off your 12V DC battery to produce some 120V AC power. It's a freestanding gizmo that some folks like to use for powering mostly small stuff like phone chargers or laptops. They don't cost much, but if you have no use for one, don't buy one.

[Linda Stewart]

I'm a girl , abet an older one, and I want power for my CPAP machine, phone charger and if going into town my curling iron.

The gas furnace doesn't work so we use a small oil filled heater when needed.

Have I mentioned the coffee machine, toaster, microwave and air conditioner? And this summer my sewing machine? Movies on the computer?

Steve loves to build things so he needs to charge his toys somewhere.

Sorry there boys but if I wanted to continue roughing it I wouldn't have my Boler 17, I would have bought a bigger tent.

This is not to say sometimes we don't go without power, we do sometimes, but if I don't get my morning coffee, gas stove, french press...stand back and no one gets hurt.


Linda

[Almost There]

It is certainly possible to live full-time without 120V at all. There are lots out there that do it day after day after day.

There are 12V appliances for just about everything including a tv if you want one. There are also power cords for almost all laptops that go directly to 12V.

Instead of a 3 way fridge take a look at the 12V compressor cooler units (Whynter, Engel, etc).

How much you can run will depend on how much solar you install and the batteries you use for storage.

For a serious comprehensive study of living on 12V only, take a look at several of the marine forums and/or CheapRVLiving.com.

You'll find that all the best advice is to figure out what you need to run first, then you can build your solar/charging system from needs not guesses.

It may be necessary to beef up the wiring and connection systems in your trailer. Most are underwired both in quantity and quality because the manufacturer expects that the owner will be using mostly shorepower rather than living off the grid.

[redbarron55]

My old Norcold (Nevercold) refrigerator pulls about 3.7 amps on 12 volts and runs about 50% or less of the time.

That would work out to about 2 amp hours X 24 or 48 amp-hours per day.
It may be slightly less since I have added a small fan to waft air over the coils in the back. The fan draws very little power and I hope it reduces the overall consumption more than it adds.

The Norcold uses a swing compressor like the Engel and can be a little noisy. The closet I built for it and the Microwave left space for a 1/4" cork lining to help insulate and reduce noise as well.
I plan to look into a solar array and controller to operate the 12 volt stuff and perhaps an inverter for short time loads like the microwave when not hooked up the the grid.

One goal for the Scamp is as an emergency hideout in case of power loss or other calamity during hurricane season, Assuming it survives. Of course when retired (soon) escape to friendlier territory as necessary.

As an aside the old Norcold I bought for $75.00 worked good on 120 VAC, bur while it ran on 12 VDC it did not cool as well. Being an electronic kind of guy I checked into it and found that the 12 oscillator put out the correct voltage, but it's frequency was 55 HZ and not 60. I looked into the circuit and found the resistor that fine tuned the frequency and tuned it to 60 HZ and now there is no difference in how it operates on 120 VAC or 12 VDC.

[Wayne Collins]

Originally Posted by Bster13

I agree on the A/C, how could I forget that one? So I'd want A/C as well... and if that's the case, being that the A/C is the single largest draw... well then you're in it ($) for a full sized inverter anyway, so this conversation is no longer needed? Or am I not thinking about this correctly (never spent a night in an R/V, just watched a lot of youtube and read a lot of forum posts ) and there is still potential for savings by going entirely 12v?

A/C runs on 110 voltsAC only. it does not go through the inverter.
A good solar charger would help recharge the 12V DC battery.

"Shore" power at campgrounds will run the A/C and the fluorescent lamps over the stove, if you have them. And, it charges the battery through the power module.

[Bster13]

Thanks for youe perspective Linda.

I am getting the feeling the furnace don't work so great, so a heater buddy may be fine for me and won't require and electrical draw, we'll see.

Phone charge can be handled by 12v, so I'm good there. I'm bald so a curling or straightening iron may be something I need to address if I have a girlfriend traveling with me. I'm unsure how much those things draw and how long my batteries would last for those items if I had to serve up 110v from my battery bank.

Toaster/Microwave/Coffee Machine...I ~think~ they can be replaced by the stove. I don't drink coffee, but a percolator would do the job, no? Stove top could reheat food items, and I suppose I can toast bread on the stove as well. Maybe I'm forgetting something. But sure, some of your items would be more convenient. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Linda Stewart

I'm a girl , abet an older one, and I want power for my CPAP machine, phone charger and if going into town my curling iron.

The gas furnace doesn't work so we use a small oil filled heater when needed.

Have I mentioned the coffee machine, toaster, microwave and air conditioner? And this summer my sewing machine? Movies on the computer?

Steve loves to build things so he needs to charge his toys somewhere.

Sorry there boys but if I wanted to continue roughing it I wouldn't have my Boler 17, I would have bought a bigger tent.

This is not to say sometimes we don't go without power, we do sometimes, but if I don't get my morning coffee, gas stove, french press...stand back and no one gets hurt.


Linda

[Bster13]

I was thinking of retaining an LP capable fridge because I heard they don't work well on 12v as well, but it sounds like u solved the problem in your setup. But am I correct in thinking running the fridge off LP works quite well in Casita/Scamps?

Originally Posted by redbarron55

My old Norcold (Nevercold) refrigerator pulls about 3.7 amps on 12 volts and runs about 50% or less of the time.

That would work out to about 2 amp hours X 24 or 48 amp-hours per day.
It may be slightly less since I have added a small fan to waft air over the coils in the back. The fan draws very little power and I hope it reduces the overall consumption more than it adds.

The Norcold uses a swing compressor like the Engel and can be a little noisy. The closet I built for it and the Microwave left space for a 1/4" cork lining to help insulate and reduce noise as well.
I plan to look into a solar array and controller to operate the 12 volt stuff and perhaps an inverter for short time loads like the microwave when not hooked up the the grid.

One goal for the Scamp is as an emergency hideout in case of power loss or other calamity during hurricane season, Assuming it survives. Of course when retired (soon) escape to friendlier territory as necessary.

As an aside the old Norcold I bought for $75.00 worked good on 120 VAC, bur while it ran on 12 VDC it did not cool as well. Being an electronic kind of guy I checked into it and found that the 12 oscillator put out the correct voltage, but it's frequency was 55 HZ and not 60. I looked into the circuit and found the resistor that fine tuned the frequency and tuned it to 60 HZ and now there is no difference in how it operates on 120 VAC or 12 VDC.

[Steve L.]

I've lost track, if I ever was on track, as to why avoid AC outlets. Short of buying a trailer in need of rewiring I don't know how this would ever come up. Obviously you don't need an inverter if you have AC outlets. Push comes to shove you could have two separate systems with each running to it's own breaker panel and avoid an converter (reminding some newer campers that inverters and converters are two different things.)

[Kai in Seattle]

For 2 1/2 years my husband and I camped in our Conversion van without propane, but with 12V and shore electric. The nights we didn't have shore power, we used our 12V lights (gradually switched to LED as they became available) and did without. We were able to run a small TV and VHS machine with battery power, and once went three days and nights with only the batteries--though we had a bank of 4 batteries under one of the seats for the bed. I didn't like having those batteries inside the vehicle, but on a conversion van, where else is there? (Towing a battery trailer might've worked!)
We cooked over a coleman stove with small canisters of butane or whatever they come with, or over campfires. THIS summer many campgrounds in the Pacific NW didn't allow campfires due to wildfires and drought. So that's a factor to consider.
Also, we're taking more of a "picnic" approach to food these days, making cold sandwiches instead of cooking hamburgers.


During those 2 1/2 years, we had NO interior fan and NO A/C. Those years weren't terribly hot, and on the one or two hot nights, we just opened all the windows (the van portion had NO screens) so that wasn't entirely great). The van had no A/C and we didn't run the engine when parked.


LED products should help battery drain. Our son set us up with all the batteries, a voltmeter dial to show us how much power was left, and an inverter/converter (whatever it took). He later did his entire garage workshop with solar power, creating enough electricity with an on-roof solar array to run all his power tools...but I doubt we could travel with solar panels large enough for that! (I don't actually "doubt" it--I know we couldn't.)


It'll be interesting to find what products we can locate now that will run on low enough power to use only our deep cell batteries, a solar panel, and occasional shore power when and if we can get it. LED lights help! New tech is coming out; we found a wall panel with half the draw of our ceramic heaters for warmth...


Best to you, sounds very interesting!


I think it's very "interesting" that some people get those EggCampers that run all electric and immediately begin planning to have propane installed...and some people get propane-using units and immediately begin planning to have all the propane removed. GOSH! Cross-cross!

[David B.]

Bryce, JD has The Norcold that uses a swing compressor, NOT an absorption style refrigerator that runs off propane/12volt/120volt. I prefer a Danfoss compressor over an absorption, but that's just a personal preference, and I don't know advantages or disadvantages of a Danfoss vs Swing compressor refrigerators (mine is not all that loud) and it also claims aboiut 3.5 amps/hr as JD's swing compressor. I had bought an all electric trailer knowing that I prefer propane, and would be switching it over, because I preferred the floor plan over anything else on the market. I have a 4D AGM battery with 200 watts of solar. You will never be able to practically run AC on solar.
Dave & Paula

[Byron Kinnaman]

Originally Posted by David B.

Bryce, JD has The Norcold that uses a swing compressor, NOT an absorption style refrigerator that runs off propane/12volt/120volt. I prefer a Danfoss compressor over an absorption, but that's just a personal preference, and I don't know advantages or disadvantages of a Danfoss vs Swing compressor refrigerators (mine is not all that loud) and it also claims aboiut 3.5 amps/hr as JD's swing compressor. I had bought an all electric trailer knowing that I prefer propane, and would be switching it over, because I preferred the floor plan over anything else on the market. I have a 4D AGM battery with 200 watts of solar. You will never be able to practically run AC on solar.
Dave & Paula

Never is a long time. I believe that solar will be efficient enough in about 10 years the run most anything. Batteries will also improve to the point where these Lead Acid batteries of today will look the water cell batteries of 60 years go. Just look at the Tesla car.

[David Tilston]

Originally Posted by David B.

You will never be able to practically run AC on solar.
Dave & Paula

With my limited budget, I can't prove you wrong, but it is my understanding that a 5000 btu AC unit consumes ~500W of power to operate, and possibly double that to start. So, a 1000W inverter combined with about 1000W of solar should do it. I understand that 1m² of solar cells produce ~150 W of power. The footprint of my Trillium 4500 is approximately 2m wide and 4m long, or ~8m². This should be able to produce ~1200W of power.

Of course the solar array would have to be in direct sun and as close to perpendicular to the sun as possible, but I see this as doable. This would have the added benefit of providing shade for most of the trailer. A linear actuator on the array, and a powered wheel on the tongue of the trailer to keep it pointed at the sun. That and the necessary controls to make it work. This is all fairly inexpensive, other then the solar cells them self.
At about $2/W, the cells would cost $2400.
Solar battery charger: $200
Batteries: ~$400?
Controls: I could do it cheep, I am a controls tech after all. But lets say another $600.

So for on the order of $3600, you could provide enough power to run AC on a sunny day.

[Gennaver]

Originally Posted by Bob Miller

His recommendations may only be valid if he is intimately familiar with the weather patterns of the western deserts....

My friend who is there mentioned total surprise at the thought of RV living there, concerned over air conditioning.

I might call the rv park there to see what they recommend too. I definitely do not want to melt inside and know this will be as big a deal as it was dealing with the cold and snow in the northern Interior of Alaska. A full time job in itself too.

Jen
p.s. edit, unless you have a good recommendation, I'd be willing to hear!

[Woodchick]

I dunno... I think it depends on how you look at your RV. It's a glass half empty kinda thing... Do you see your RV as a surrogate house, or an upgrade from a tent? I come from the tent side. 120 means I'm plugged in to civilization... not what I had in mind when I got into RVing. I'm in this to get AWAY from all that.
And, seriously... Why on earth would I want to bring a hairdryer camping? My hubby doesn't mind my hair under a hat, and I really doubt the locals (squirrel, crow, etc) will even notice.

[Timber Wolf]

Originally Posted by David Tilston

So for on the order of $3600, you could provide enough power to run AC on a sunny day.

It is all a matter of personal perspective of course, but I am with Dave B. on this one. I would not call $3600 and a requirement for a sunny day "practical".

I do wonder though, as much as I am impressed with my 12V compressor Truckfridge, where the heck are the very efficient 12V compressor A/C units?

[Jon Vermilye]

Originally Posted by Timber Wolf

It is all a matter of personal perspective of course, but I am with Dave B. on this one. I would not call $3600 and a requirement for a sunny day "practical".

I do wonder though, as much as I am impressed with my 12V compressor Truckfridge, where the heck are the very efficient 12V compressor A/C units?

You can find some (some made by the same manufacturers as the RV ACs) built for the boating industry. Not roof top, more expensive, but far more efficient.

For example, a 5000BTU unit that draws 4.4 amps: Webasto Marine AC FCF 5000 BTU Air Conditioner - Star Marine Depot

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Almost There

Instead of a 3 way fridge take a look at the 12V compressor cooler units (Whynter, Engel, etc).

.

If one is wishing to go off the grid full time I would suggest that even the new 12V compressor fridges are going to create a challenge in maintain enough power due to weather and location at times that it is preventing full solar power. Having the fridge running on propane is one way of greatly reducing your daily 12v needs.

[Carol H]

Originally Posted by Woodchick

I'm plugged in to civilization... not what I had in mind when I got into RVing. I'm in this to get AWAY from all that.
And, seriously... Why on earth would I want to bring a hairdryer camping? My hubby doesn't mind my hair under a hat, and I really doubt the locals (squirrel, crow, etc) will even notice.

I agree with your view of the need for a hairdryer if you are only using your trailer for camping trips but not everyone does.

Some of use use our trailers for accommodation when attending other events (such as a wedding) or we are traveling for long stretches of time and its nice to be able to be able to make yourself a little more presentable when eating out or doing our shopping, than the level the local squirrels and crows back in the campground mind