Progressive Dynamics PD4045

[Carl G]

The PD4045 has short, hot (black) leads coming out of the back of the unit for all of the 12 DC circuits. Please escuse my novice question, but where will I connect the return, netural (white) wires to complete the circuits? The AC side has a neutral bus bar as well as a ground bus bar, but the DC side has nothing.

Thanks,
Carl

[John Jesse]

Carl,

I have not received my unit yet but from what I can tell you will need to terminate the negative side of the 12 volt loads to a battery negative lug. In most vehicles and trailers there is a fair amount of steel around which forms the negative side of the circuit and you connect the negative side of your loads to the metal frame or body to save on wiring. Since our trailers are mostly fiberglass most of the 12 volt negative path is wired back to the source. You can tie all of the negative wires from all of your different loads together and either run a cable to the negative battery post or tie them to the negative converter lead which is then connected to the battery. No matter what you do be careful to use the appropriate wire gauge to avoid overheating the wire and a potential fire. What I will do in my trailer is bring 2 heavy gauge cables (one positive and one negative) from the battery to the converter. I will install 2 insulated lugs in the cabinet with the converter and all the negative wires will terminate on the negative lug along with the battery negative cable, and the positive lug will just have the converter feed wire and the battery cable on it. Also consider adding a circuit breaker near the battery to protect the whole system, I will add a 50 amp breaker inside my battery box.

I don't mean to be picky but you should be careful with the terms you use to describe the wiring in your trailer. Since there is both a 12 volt DC system and a 120 volt AC system it can get a bit confusing. On the DC side you have positive or battery + and negative or battery -, the terms hot and neutral are used when describing AC systems. It can get a bit confusing when people refer to the negative side of a DC circuit as ground which is very common but not really correct, as ground is used in AC wiring (among other things) to describe a wire that is actually connected to earth at some point in the circuit.

Hope this helps,
John Jesse

[Carl G]

Thank you for the correction. I am little new at having both AC and DC systems in one application and so confused my terminology.

Also, thank you for the great advice. I do have a question regarding your plans to install insulated lugs in the cabinet with the converter and have all the negative wires terminate on the negative lug along with the battery negative cable. I'm use to insulated lugs that attach to a terminal. Are you installing some type of terminal on which these lugs will attach?

Thanks,
Carl

[John Jesse]

Carl,

Now I am the one who needs corrections on my terminology! When I talked about insulated lugs I was meaning something like this http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog...s/cn-1_s14.jpg I guess that would be more akin to a terminal post or a binding post. Nevertheless, the ones I use will be heavier and will accept more wire that the one in the picture. I think this will keep everything neat and will give me a place to securely attach the negative leads from all the different loads.

John

[Carl G]

John,

Now that is the way to do it! I like it. Do you know of a good supplier for one that will be large and heavy-duty enough to handle the heavy gauge wire from the battery plus the assortment of negative wires?

Carl

[Matt in SV]

John,

Now that is the way to do it! I like it. Do you know of a good supplier for one that will be large and heavy-duty enough to handle the heavy gauge wire from the battery plus the assortment of negative wires?

Carl

You could also consider a negative ground bus bar, or a terminal strip with screws or lugs, tied back to the battery. Some of the PD products are available with that bar on the back of the panel for this purpose. I'll see if I can find an example.


http://www.google.com/products?q=ground+ba...ved=0CC8QrQQwAg

Check this thread on the 4045 in the airstream forum.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449/progr...rter-49313.html

Post 8 has a hookup schematic showing the bus bar, then post 15 on the next page has the actual implementation in a photo. You can see the neg bus bar up at around 10 O'clock in the photo, wedged tight against the edge of the floor.

You could also use a terminal grounding block, similar to the large block near the center, except the grounding block would have all its terminals bussed together.

Regards,

Matt

[Carl G]

Thank you Matt,

Great information and pictures. Now, however, I'm a bit confused about what is happening with all of the DC positive wires. I see that they are all connected to that large block (terminal grounding block) in the center. Are these circuits separate from one another after being attached to this block? Please forgive my novice question, but it appears to me that attaching them all to one block will mean that they are no longer separately fused circuits. I must be missing something. Please help me out with this one.

Thanks,
Carl

[Larry C Hanson]

Please post pictures with your questions.
They would make answers easier.
Larry H

[Matt in SV]

Thank you Matt,

Great information and pictures. Now, however, I'm a bit confused about what is happening with all of the DC positive wires. I see that they are all connected to that large block (terminal grounding block) in the center. Are these circuits separate from one another after being attached to this block? Please forgive my novice question, but it appears to me that attaching them all to one block will mean that they are no longer separately fused circuits. I must be missing something. Please help me out with this one.

Thanks,
Carl

The twelve black dc wires that emerge from the converter are the fused, positive output 12vdc circuits. They each go to a separate lug on go to a terminal block to provide a convenient interface point with the trailer wiring. Only a half dozen in that schematic are currently allocated by the trailer owner, so six or seven of the wires each go to an unterminated lug. Those aren't connected together, just stubbed out for future expansion. That terminal block has an independent lug for each circuit. Usually there's a plastic wall between the screw heads for physical separation.


This link shows a screw terminal block pretty clearly. You can get them with screws, solder lugs, binding posts or spade lugs, in various combinations. The ones at this link have two screws per position, but I think the airstream guy has just one screw per circuit.
http://octopart.com/672-gp-12-marathon+spe...products-939914

Regards,

Matt

[Carl G]

I was hoping that would be your answer Matt. I was wondering how I was going to deal with all of those 12vdc postive wires. Now that I know that the each connection is physcically separated on the block, I am going this route. I sure makes a clean setup for making all of these connections. I appreciated the help!

Thanks again,
Carl

[MyronL]

I liked this thread so much I bought a PD 4045 for my rebuild. Replacing in same spot as the straight factory dual breaker box. I also could not de-cypher the manufacturer instruction/installation sheet, emailed them and got some guidance back in an email. The lights are slowly going on in my head but then, after yesterday's all-day rain, discovered a leak and rotted cavities in flooring where it was not anticipated. Note where in second pix the bare ground wire goes (from a lug bar salvaged from the original factory breaker box) down to attach to the frame. If it isn't from the belly band (the water leak) it must be from the furnace exterior exhaust plate.






My searches on leaky subjects turned up great advice from Per and Con in threads from 5+ years ago. Per? Con? Where are you guys...?

[Matt in SV]

I was hoping that would be your answer Matt. I was wondering how I was going to deal with all of those 12vdc postive wires. Now that I know that the each connection is physcically separated on the block, I am going this route. I sure makes a clean setup for making all of these connections. I appreciated the help!

Thanks again,
Carl

No problem. I saw similar terminal blocks at West Marine in 8 and 10 positions for about $10 each today. They had 2 screws per position

Regards,

Matt

[Carl G]

Sorry to hear of your difficulties with leaks. Believe me, I know how it is. I'm currently replacing my entire floor.

Matt: I do have one more question concerning the barrier terminal block for the positive 12vdc wires. Does the block need to be enclosed in some type of box or can it just be mounted inside the compartment as indicated on the air stream photograph?

Thanks,
Carl

[kyle minor]

I too have a new 4045 that I'm installing and am confused by the diagram provided. I have (2) 10ga wires coming out of the top from the back of the panel. The balck one is 12" while the white is 24". I connected the white to my grounding block as well as the battery ground. From what I gather, I'm supposed to connect the black lead to the battery. I have a hard time believing my entire 12v system is being charged and carrying load on a single 10ga wire. I would assume there would be a heavy-duty lug somewhere to attach the battery leads(also heavy-duty) to the panel but this does not seem to be the case. Can someone explain how the battery is supplied power to recharge as well as return power to the panel all with a 10ga wire? I'm new to this and want to understand but this logic escapes me.

Thanks

below are pics of my install so far:

[MyronL]

Here's what the PD service guy emailed me:

"The Shore AC power cord will come into the unit to the main breaker , netrual bar and ground bar. The AC power is then distributed to 120 Volt items through the AC breakers , neutral and ground bars.

The large Black and White wires from the DC distribution panel go to the battery. + Black - White

You DC items go to the individual numbered wires , corresponding to fuses . + side

Your – return side of DC items go to a ground bar which in turn is connected to the DC – side of the system and battery. Or sometimes the chassis is the DC return and the lights , etc are connected through the chasis."

[Bob1870]

I have been browsing many forms on discussions on the best way to install the PD4045. I have taken away much, and both Randy at best converter and Mark at PD have been a big help.
I have one more thing I want to be sure of before I throw the switch. I have tried to attach a photo to no avail, so bare with me.
I have attached my Batt + to the connection on the right rather than the upper one as I have a battery shut off on my battery box (this is what the install directions indicate). I have removed the Jumper from the converter that would have linked both Positive terminals. Wiring the Batt + to the other terminal is for systems which have no battery shut off (again which is indicated in the install manual).
So the question is, do I have this wired correctly? I seem to get the impression I have to run additional wires from the battery if I am going to utilize the shut off option on this converter, but this is where my "experience" in wiring runs out.
Any thoughts, comment or suggestions would be appreciated.

[stevebaz]

You took the 12 volt DC positive jumper out, this is the power connection from the output of the converter to your 12 volt positive buss. It looks like you brought in power from the battery on the hot pink line from the battery positive. (I dont know only you can see the other end of the hot pink wire.) if this is true as wired the converter will do nothing since its output is connected to nothing. The 12 volt buss is recieving battery power assuming its connected to the battery positive through your connected disconnect switch. You need to plan to get the output from the converter to your batter so it will get recharged. I do not see that happening the way it is currently wired. As wired if you turn off your battery line and are plugged in to 120 volt AC the converter will not power your 12 volt circuts since you choose this wiring path. That is OK if that is what you want.

[Bob Miller]

Because PD does not provide an internal schematic for the PD-4045 I think that this is a question for them.

The ones I have installed have all, with the exception of attaching the converter power wire to a breaker, been as out-of-the-box, including two that had battery disconnect switches, without any known problems.

[Bob1870]

Here is the pic I had intended to add. I understood that the two positives on the converter were "input" rather than out put. Would not the converter supply 12 power to amenities via the fused output to the amenities?
For clarity the locations labelled batt + is from the battery rather than to the battery. Likewise for the Batt -.

[Bob1870]

photo...