Surge Protectors

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by Byron Kinnaman

What RAM?

That's your response?
OK Dakota. Does that make it better?
You're still on grid.

[Russ Foster]

still on grid

[Joe MacDonald]

time to step back into the corner people, everyone has an opinion, no reason to make it personal.
The reason I joined this forum was for the sharing of ideas, not their bashing.

joe

[Glenn Baglo]

Originally Posted by Joe MacDonald

The reason I joined this forum was for the sharing of ideas, not their bashing.

joe

Relax. We are sharing ideas.

[daver]

Campgrounds have notoriously poor AC power distribution. Power connections at each site are subject to moisture, poor connections and lack of proper ground. Additionally there are dozens or hundreds of other trailers on the same circuits that are constantly cycling the power on all of their devices. All of these things can cause major fluctuations in the line voltage at your trailer. So you should use a surge protector for your entire trailer because several of the installed devices (refrigerator, air conditioner, furnace, TV, stereo, etc) have sensitive electronic components.

Surge protectors use a couple of different technologies to limit surges so that they do not destroy your equipment. Metal Oxide Varistors (MOVs) are the most common. These are themselves a semiconductor device. They can block a surge as short as 3 nanoseconds (0.000000003 seconds). The other most common technology is a Gas Discharge Arrestor. These use a tube filled with a gas that presents a short circuit to ground for surges.

Both of these technologies work well but may need to be completely replaced in the event of a large surge because the component that protects your equipment commits suicide for the cause. For this reason alone I would not use a built-in surge protector unless it is trivial to replace and you carry a spare with you. Otherwise you might find yourself without any power at all after a surge. With an external or in-line protector you can simply not use it after a surge until you purchase a replacement. Also many surge protectors for RVs have an internal fuse which may have to be replaced after a surge. So if you cannot easily get to the protector this may also leave you without power.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

I have the same Progressive surge protector as you
I have had to make repairs / adjustment to it on several occasions and saw no components that were capable of boosting or lowering voltage
It appears to be nothing more than a monitor that shuts the power off when the voltage goes above or below the set perimeters and clips small spikes in the voltage .

based on the size and weight of the progressive EMS stuff, I assumed it had a multi-tap transformer in it, similar to the nearly antique (early 70s) AC power conditioner I've used on stereo equipment for field recordings. but with hindsight, that AC regulator was only 200 watts, while one of these trailers is like 3600 watts, so....

[emers382]

We have the Progressive EMS in ours. Other than waiting a while to be able to use power while it does its checking, it's been great and glad we have it. The previous owners had Escape install on build.

On this latest trip at one campground I got two errors when plugging into the 30 amp. Fortunately we carry a 50-30 plug which we got years ago when staying at a park in Tucson with only 50 amp connection. I wondered why I carry it but glad I do as the 50 amp on the same power post worked just fine.

I wonder what kinds of problems Steve had (see post #3) which caused him to bypass the EMS which I'm sure is the same model we have. Overall through this thread the general opinion is that it's good to have. I also wonder whether Steve does all his typing on his phone since he said he has no computer or laptop at home

[Dave40]

Before buying my recent camper, I persuaded myself that a portable surge protector would be adequate. But after looking over the selections on Camping World and Amazon, it seems that I may have been naive. The built-in models feature a faster reaction time and automatically shut down the system if voltages are unstable or drop below a certain level. As far as I can see, the portable models have a moderate reaction time and do not react to low voltages. Hence purchasing one of these appears a waste of money. Am I wrong? Comments or corrections welcome, along with recommendations for a portable surge protector!

[Jon Vermilye]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

based on the size and weight of the progressive EMS stuff, I assumed it had a multi-tap transformer in it, similar to the nearly antique (early 70s) AC power conditioner I've used on stereo equipment for field recordings. but with hindsight, that AC regulator was only 200 watts, while one of these trailers is like 3600 watts, so....

The Progressive EMS devices are not autoformers, ie they do not adjust voltage. They have a contractor (relay) and electronics that monitor the input voltage. It provides either a 132 second or 15 second (depending on the jumper position) when first connected to a power source before closing the contractor. During the delay, it makes the following checks:

If the voltage is too high (above 132V) or too low (below 104V) it doesn't close the contractor. In addition, it checks for an open ground, reversed polarity, and that the AC frequency is +/- 9 hz of 60 hz. It opens the contractor if any of the mentioned conditions occur after closing the contractor.

The surge protection depends on the model - Quoting the operating manual - "This feature provides full surge protection L-N, L-G, and N-G. Total Joule rating is 1,790J and 44,000A surge current. Response time <1 Nano second."

[sokhapkin]

Surge protector is an insurance against a possible out of range voltage which could (possible) damage an equipment. Like any other kind of insurance it is a waste of money.

[computerspook]

I can't imagine a reason for a surge supressor. And remember that they are kind of items that need replaced at times. And a surge supressor without a good ground is actually a surge amplifier. And in the RV world you are going to see a lot of bad grounds.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by computerspook

I can't imagine a reason for a surge supressor. And remember that they are kind of items that need replaced at times. And a surge supressor without a good ground is actually a surge amplifier. And in the RV world you are going to see a lot of bad grounds.

a classic surge suppressor is basically insurance against lightning strikes.

these EMS systems don't even CONNECT the voltage until they've confirmed the ground is good and that live and neutral aren't swapped, and the voltage and frequency are in spec. the 'surge suppression' that would catch a lightning hit is a separate function. they will disconnect the load via the contactor relay if the voltage or frequency goes out of range.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Dave40

Before buying my recent camper, I persuaded myself that a portable surge protector would be adequate. But after looking over the selections on Camping World and Amazon, it seems that I may have been naive. The built-in models feature a faster reaction time and automatically shut down the system if voltages are unstable or drop below a certain level. As far as I can see, the portable models have a moderate reaction time and do not react to low voltages. Hence purchasing one of these appears a waste of money. Am I wrong? Comments or corrections welcome, along with recommendations for a portable surge protector!

this beast is a 30A EMS that does everything the built in ones do. but its also rather large....
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00T36Q7R2

[computerspook]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

a classic surge suppressor is basically insurance against lightning strikes.

these EMS systems don't even CONNECT the voltage until they've confirmed the ground is good and that live and neutral aren't swapped, and the voltage and frequency are in spec. the 'surge suppression' that would catch a lightning hit is a separate function. they will disconnect the load via the contactor relay if the voltage or frequency goes out of range.

But what do you have in your camper that you think would have a problem with surges? And what happens if you get to a camp ground your EMS system doesn't like?

Most of the stuff in modern campers is 12 volt, and so you are dealing with power coming out of the converter, and then that is buffered by the battery. And it is designed for fairly out of voltage situations. Seems like a gimmick that really should have no purpose.

I travel into places with horrible power. You know disaster areas. I run on a generator for weeks on end. All with no problems.

[OCJohn]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

this beast is a 30A EMS that does everything the built in ones do. but its also rather large....
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00T36Q7R2

$215 – damn. I'd be more concerned about theft than inadequate response time. The Progressive HW30C is only $15 more. "I'll take Out of Sight, Out of Mind for $230 Alex."

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by computerspook

But what do you have in your camper that you think would have a problem with surges? And what happens if you get to a camp ground your EMS system doesn't like?

Most of the stuff in modern campers is 12 volt, and so you are dealing with power coming out of the converter, and then that is buffered by the battery. And it is designed for fairly out of voltage situations. Seems like a gimmick that really should have no purpose.

well, the #1 thing Id want to protect is my power converter.


and live/neutral swaps from a miswired post, not unknown in RV land, can give you a nasty shock. Ditto neutral-ground swaps or any other combination.

if I get to a campground who's power is not clean? I don't want to use it. I'll bitch at the camp management if I can, move if I can. or as one person here reported, using a 50A to 30A adapter gave them clean power, when the 30A outlet was miswired.... I think I still carry my 50A to 30A dogbone.

[computerspook]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

well, the #1 thing Id want to protect is my power converter.


and live/neutral swaps from a miswired post, not unknown in RV land, can give you a nasty shock. Ditto neutral-ground swaps or any other combination.

if I get to a campground who's power is not clean? I don't want to use it. I'll bitch at the camp management if I can, move if I can. or as one person here reported, using a 50A to 30A adapter gave them clean power, when the 30A outlet was miswired.... I think I still carry my 50A to 30A dogbone.

My power converter will handle about any of this. I am working off of generators or jury rigged power more than I am at camp sites.

Frankly if you are talking miswired. Yeah I generally check that. As for clean power. If you are going to wait and limit yourself to clean power at a camp site, you won't be using their power much. I see a lot of bad power. Like almost always. By the way that device you are recommending has about half the clamping and isolation needed for a 15A circuit.


Now I do run radios that don't like bad converter power, so I do run that into a power stream lund engineering high current high filtering buck and boost converter. But that is pretty much for my radios.

I also have to generally earth ground so I have the ability to properly bond my earth grounds. Always bond all of your grounds. That is a bigger equipment killer than power line surges. And surges on data/phone/cable lines also are bigger equipment killer.

[John in Santa Cruz]

and yeah, that is kinda expensive. but it seemed like good insurance, and at the time, that was petty cash for me.

I'd be happy with a little pass-through plug tester that had a volt/amp/freq/PF display, and if it tested good, plug it in... Butt, I'd have to remember to test the outlet before plugging... if you have or use one of these, its automatic.

i'm real happy my Escape has the built in EMS. turns out my outside garage outlet that feeds the extension cord to the RV is fine, but I was on a cord that had its ground removed eons ago for sketchy reasons. its been on another cord in a different part of my driveway for a week now prepping for tomorrows south sierra run, and the EMS hasn't faulted. In the future, I never remove the ground pin of an extension cord, and instead use a 3-prong adapter plug, and I probably should trash the cord I did remove the plug from.

[Dave40]

OCJohn, Thank you for your link to the Technology Research 34830 Surge Guard. Although pricey it appears (to me, anyhow) to be worth the cost. I have put it on CamelCamelCamel to buy when the price drops. In meantime, I am testing RV power with a simple electrician’s tester, and surveying neighboring campers. If bad news, I am prepared to move or even boondock. I lost an A/C in the not-too-distant past to bad power at a military campground.

[RogerDat]

My old camper didn't have air conditioner but did have several 12 volt fans. One holiday weekend it was 12 volt fans for the win. Campground was packed, hot so everyone was running AC and I guess firing up the stove didn't seem pleasant making microwaves popular so... campground was in a fluctuating brown out to intermittent black out for 2 days.

My scamp is pretty simple being old but I can see where having some protection as an insurance policy against low/high voltage, bad ground, or polarity could make sense. The trick is to find the equipment that provides not only peace of mind but actual protection.

I am not going to need a surge protector for what I run except for a laptop, for that I was hoping to get a 12 volt power brick to replace the 110 volt one I normally use or I can plug it into the full wave inverter outlet so it is running off the battery as a buffer. Don't think the solar panel is likely to over voltage that circuit. I do also have some battery chargers, the one for the camera battery in particular could be an issue when I think about it. Would hate to kill one of those batteries while on a trip and they take a long time to charge. Overhead from inverter is almost as bad as the charger draw I expect.

One might want one, another might not. Only real question is if one does decide to purchase a surge protector or line conditioning device to know what features it really offers and how well it implements those features. Waste of money is both relative and having peace of mind or "insurance" has a value specific to the individual.

Heck I don't have AC and some people consider it essential. Low power draw fan I consider essential. I wouldn't expect criticism of my choice if I was asking about fans with the best power consumption or other features. Wouldn't be useful. And we are all about helping each other here right?