City water pipe replacement

[jefflarsen]

Anybody know how to disconnect the blue fittings in the picture? I just need to replace the stretch of tubing from the blue elbow to the back of the city water connector on my 2002 13' foot Scamp. Thanks. Jeff

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[The Minimalist]

I really can't see the fitting very well, but it looks to be a speed-fit fitting, which should allow you to unscrew the collar to remove the tubing. You will likely find a plastic insert inside the tubing when you remove it.

There are several good videos on Youtube which discuss this type fitting.

[gordon2]

The blue rings look like a Uponor Propex expansion rings (although I have not seen them in blue before and that throws me off). If that is what they are, they are put on with a tool that expands them. This is what Scamp started using a few years ago. It might be next to impossible to get the tool in the tight space however, but there are other ways to do it. See my thread:
http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...ing-79032.html


BTW, I dont see a blue fitting. I see a black elbow with blue rings. Or do you mean the lower connection?

EDIT: Here is the city water connection to the main plumbing line in my Scamp 16-4:

[jefflarsen]

Originally Posted by gordon2

The blue rings look like a Uponor Propex expansion rings (although I have not seen them in blue before and that throws me off). If that is what they are, they are put on with a tool that expands them. This is what Scamp started using a few years ago. It might be next to impossible to get the tool in the tight space however, but there are other ways to do it. See my thread:
http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...ing-79032.html


BTW, I dont see a blue fitting. I see a black elbow with blue rings. Or do you mean the lower connection?



EDIT: Here is the city water connection to the main plumbing line in my Scamp 16-4:

Sorry, black elbow with blue "rings" not "fitting". Yes, they do look like the expansion style that's in your picture..but colored blue. Scamp factory installed a new city water connection on my 02, changed the the plumbing to the new stuff that unfortunately included a portion of cracked pipe (the wrapped section in the picture). I'm in Seattle now, they're in Backus so they obliged to send me the fittings and pipe to replace the cracked portion.I hope they include instructions. I can't find a whole lot of info about the water pipes and fittings Scamp uses. You've been the best source so far. Thanks.

[gordon2]

If any question, you might want to check with Scamp then and verify they used the Unponor Propex system.

Here is the install guide for that type of PEX plumbing*:
https://www.uponorpro.com/~/media/Ex...spx?sc_lang=en
There are also online videos that make it clear how to make the connections.

The expander tool is expensive and hard to get into tight spaces. As I recall, the Uponor website lists certified plumbers so that may help.

Or you can likely use another technique such as Sharkbite connectors (not my prefered method), or if it is PEX pipe, you can use copper crimp rings, using a cheaper and more common crimp tool that you can likely rent. You lose the Uponor warranty that way but the plug that I crimped on with a copper ring passed the go /no-go test and so far has been leak free in my rig. Again, my thread has a lot of info from myself and others on ways to approach it.

The fittings, tools, etc. are available at SupplyHouse.com - Plumbing, Heating & HVAC Supplies for one place. There is a manual expander tool on Amazon that is a Chinese knockoff and under $200.


* BTW, I noticed that Scamp has violated one or two of the instructions in that guide.

[Raspy]

As far as I'm concerned the Uponor system is way too much trouble for no gain. Use copper crimp rings that are readily available and look at the various tool styles to find one that will work in your tight area. Another system is the stainless steel "cinch ring", easily available at Lowes and the tool is very compact.

I've used copper crimp rings for many years and have never had a problem.

Also, most systems use way too many fittings. PEX is flexible, so take advantage of that and think in PEX instead of thinking in copper. PEX will snake through and make very nice bends in tight areas.

Sharkbite is good for emergencies or if you don't have the proper tool, but I would not trust them in my trailer. Easy doesn't mean good.

[Borrego Dave]

Originally Posted by jefflarsen

Anybody know how to disconnect the blue fittings in the picture? I just need to replace the stretch of tubing from the blue elbow to the back of the city water connector on my 2002 13' foot Scamp. Thanks. Jeff

Jeff, your going to want to cut the line and remove the city water fill. Add a piece of Pex or whatever the make is, to the city fitting as it doesn't look like there's any room to get the crimping tool on it. Cut it later where you need the 90*. Just FYI, when I added a shutoff valve for the toilet I bought the crimping tool, rings, 25' of Pex and a few fittings for just a bit over $125. The tool, a few rings and a few feet of Pex are in the TT and I hope I never have to use any of it again but it's on hand. Who knows, someone else may need a repair. I was at Lake Powell in '95, 100s of power boats and 1 sailboat on the water. I sailed for years and looked him up. His main had ripped and didn't have a spare. I had a sail in the MH I used once in a while for a tarp. Took it over to him and had him cut off what ever he needed. Probably the only extra sail material within 300 miles but it sure saved his vacation.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Raspy

As far as I'm concerned the Uponor system is way too much trouble for no gain. ...

The advantage is for the installer, not the end user (at least not until the technique becomes more common-place and the tools become cheaper). For the installer, its faster and the parts are less expensive, saving them money in both ways and allowing them to control the retail price of the trailer. There is some opinion that the connections are more secure and work better in a travel trailer but as you have pointed out, the difference is nil. And you do lose the Uponon warranty if you go to copper crimp rings but again that is not a big concern in a trailer (like it would be in a half million dollar home).

Originally Posted by Raspy

PEX is flexible, so take advantage of that and think in PEX instead of thinking in copper. PEX will snake through and make very nice bends in tight areas.

True, but do pay attention to the maximum bend radius specified by the manufacturer. If you bend it too much you risk failure by putting too much stress on the fitting and the connection.

[jefflarsen]

Originally Posted by Borrego Dave

Jeff, your going to want to cut the line and remove the city water fill. Add a piece of Pex or whatever the make is, to the city fitting as it doesn't look like there's any room to get the crimping tool on it. Cut it later where you need the 90*. Just FYI, when I added a shutoff valve for the toilet I bought the crimping tool, rings, 25' of Pex and a few fittings for just a bit over $125. The tool, a few rings and a few feet of Pex are in the TT and I hope I never have to use any of it again but it's on hand. Who knows, someone else may need a repair. I was at Lake Powell in '95, 100s of power boats and 1 sailboat on the water. I sailed for years and looked him up. His main had ripped and didn't have a spare. I had a sail in the MH I used once in a while for a tarp. Took it over to him and had him cut off what ever he needed. Probably the only extra sail material within 300 miles but it sure saved his vacation.

Dave, The cracked pex (looks like a cutting mistake) is Scamp's mistake so service asked me to measure the two sections and they would send me the "L" setup with the city water fitting on the 11" side of the "L" and a sharkbite to connect the shorter end of the "L" to the rest of the water system. Received the parts yesterday. Ooops. Looks like they attached the city water connection to the wrong end of the 1/2" tubing. I'll know for sure Tuesday. Doubt if the pex will flex enough to cover the mistake. Regardless, once I get the right setup from Scamp my plan is to temporarily use the sharkbite inline connector (sounds like few folks trust it) to reconnect the system. Unfortunately the sharkbite connector will be about 2 feet from the new converter. I have a local (Seattle) appointment in early July to have the new water heater that Scamp installed incorrectly at the factory to be removed and installed correctly (at Scamp's expense). Since the water lines will be exposed and accessible I plan to have a different system installed that will be easier to work with and more reliable. I will consult with the installer who I trust and go with his recommendation for the proper tubing/connectors for the tight quarters in the Scamp. I plan then to buy more of the tubing and connectors to have on hand. Good suggestion.

[jefflarsen]

Originally Posted by gordon2

If any question, you might want to check with Scamp then and verify they used the Unponor Propex system.

Here is the install guide for that type of PEX plumbing*:
https://www.uponorpro.com/~/media/Ex...spx?sc_lang=en
There are also online videos that make it clear how to make the connections.

The expander tool is expensive and hard to get into tight spaces. As I recall, the Uponor website lists certified plumbers so that may help.

Or you can likely use another technique such as Sharkbite connectors (not my prefered method), or if it is PEX pipe, you can use copper crimp rings, using a cheaper and more common crimp tool that you can likely rent. You lose the Uponor warranty that way but the plug that I crimped on with a copper ring passed the go /no-go test and so far has been leak free in my rig. Again, my thread has a lot of info from myself and others on ways to approach it.

The fittings, tools, etc. are available at SupplyHouse.com - Plumbing, Heating & HVAC Supplies for one place. There is a manual expander tool on Amazon that is a Chinese knockoff and under $200.


* BTW, I noticed that Scamp has violated one or two of the instructions in that guide.

Thanks for the info. I explained to Dave my approach. Guess it took one cracked pipe (cutting error?) to learn everything I need to know about the water system. Should I send Scamp a thank you note? Actually Scamp has been quick long-distance to help me resolve their installation mistakes. J

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by jefflarsen

.... my plan is to ..

Now here is a man with a plan, and a good plan at that.

One more thing to look at if you are redoing the water heater. Scamp used a Uponor shutoff valve in the cold water line to my water heater. It leaked on me about 16 months after the Scamp was built. It might have been due to freezing damage since you can't really get antifreeze to flow into and through the valve unless you run at least a little into the water heater, which is not what I wanted to do. A better valve, and / or a proper bypass (for winterization) might be advisable. I actually bought a very nice brass Uponor ProPex compatible valve along with expansion rings when I was planning on repairing the leak and keeping the water heater. But for now I just capped off the cold water line (with copper PEX crimp ring) since I never used the water heater anyway. I might have repaired it with the Uponor Propex parts if I got the right expander tool that I ordered, but they sent the wrong one and the replacement would have to come form China (or I would have to spend $400 or more on one) and I had camping to do .

I might also mention that I almost never use my city water connection (I fill the onboard tank and use that). If I had your problem I could cap off the line and be happy with that. YMMV (or maybe more importantly, YWMMV - Your Wife's Milage May Vary).

[jefflarsen]

Originally Posted by gordon2

Now here is a man with a plan, and a good plan at that.

One more thing to look at if you are redoing the water heater. Scamp used a Uponor shutoff valve in the cold water line to my water heater. It leaked on me about 16 months after the Scamp was built. It might have been due to freezing damage since you can't really get antifreeze to flow into and through the valve unless you run at least a little into the water heater, which is not what I wanted to do. A better valve, and / or a proper bypass (for winterization) might be advisable. I actually bought a very nice brass Uponor ProPex compatible valve along with expansion rings when I was planning on repairing the leak and keeping the water heater. But for now I just capped off the cold water line (with copper PEX crimp ring) since I never used the water heater anyway. I might have repaired it with the Uponor Propex parts if I got the right expander tool that I ordered, but they sent the wrong one and the replacement would have to come form China (or I would have to spend $400 or more on one) and I had camping to do .

I might also mention that I almost never use my city water connection (I fill the onboard tank and use that). If I had your problem I could cap off the line and be happy with that. YMMV (or maybe more importantly, YWMMV - Your Wife's Milage May Vary).

Thanks much for the heads up. I'll have the installer check the water heater cold water line valve - change if needed. I use hot water a lot camping so I need it operable. Swapped out the original for a new Atwood gas/electric, with the switch inside. Works great. I used the on-board water system to get home from Backus. Controlled the pressure with the water pump switch and the faucets to keep the water backed off from the crack. Could still use the water heater. Used Flex Seal and a bath towel to control the leak as much as possible. Worked out and saved permanent damage to the new converter Scamp installed near the leak.

[Raspy]

Originally Posted by gordon2

The advantage is for the installer, not the end user (at least not until the technique becomes more common-place and the tools become cheaper). For the installer, its faster and the parts are less expensive, saving them money in both ways and allowing them to control the retail price of the trailer. There is some opinion that the connections are more secure and work better in a travel trailer but as you have pointed out, the difference is nil. And you do lose the Uponon warranty if you go to copper crimp rings but again that is not a big concern in a trailer (like it would be in a half million dollar home).



True, but do pay attention to the maximum bend radius specified by the manufacturer. If you bend it too much you risk failure by putting too much stress on the fitting and the connection.

Gordon,

Actually the Uponor system is more expensive and requires it's own set of tools for a proprietary system. You have to use their specific fittings that you only get from them or their supplier. Crimp rings are well proven and are available at big box stores or many other places. Uponor (or Wirsbo) has always tried to have exclusive equipment that is a bit different than the industry standard. Kind of a marketing strategy, good stuff, but not better.

The bend radius is exactly why thinking in PEX is such an advantage. A 1/2" PEX (5/8" OD) tube can easily make a 9" diameter return bend for instance. This means less fittings used, better flow and less hassle getting the tool into place.

I install PEX regularly and have run somewhere around 20 miles of it at this point. Hundreds of fittings. Many of them buried in concrete. I guarantee my work and have never had a failure with them. But, the fewer the fittings you can use, the better the end result. A cleaner job that flows better and gets done quicker.

I also won't use plastic fittings, but I see a lot of them in trailers. A plastic 90 is much more likely to fail than a curve in the tube.

[gordon2]

Originally Posted by Raspy

..
Actually the Uponor system is more expensive and requires it's own set of tools for a proprietary system. ...
...
I also won't use plastic fittings, but I see a lot of them in trailers. A plastic 90 is much more likely to fail than a curve in the tube.

Why would the ever-cost-conscience Evelands Inc Company (Scamp) use it then? Time savings translating into labor cost savings. The tools (really just tool) is a one time purchase. So if you do enough plumbing, the labor savings becomes the deciding factor. At least that is what I understand. But all that is not relevant to the problem at hand.. we have to deal with what Evelands put in the camper and I would not suggest that investing in the more expensive expander tool is a good idea, financially speaking, for the end user with a very rare need for it.

If you can make bends in PEX that do not exceed the max allowed radius it is of course preferable to using more fittings that only make it look neat but in reality adds potential points of failure.

As for the plastic fittings.. right you are again. It is unfortunate that they wont spend just a little bit more for better fittings. I'm sure you recall the problem with PB plumbing in homes that was attributed largely to the the cheap fittings being affected by chlorine. I have PB pipes here but fortunately metal fittings and no leaks in 23 years (fingers crossed).