Sunshower use

[GatorCasita]

Originally Posted by Alex Adams

I understand your point, but look at it this way. You put 20 campers in the same area for 1/2 the year all spilling their grey water onto the ground, what do you thing will happen?

As a Ph.D. environmental scientist...the answer is: very little or nothing. Maybe a lot of the plants will grow faster because of the additional water and the small amounts of nutrients from the soap/detergent in them. As long as people put nothing into the gray water that they would not put on their bodies, the effect would be little or none.

[Franknank]

I have used solar showers in the national forest campgrounds and while boondocking. I have never used one at a RV park or national park.

[Rockytop]

Originally Posted by CPW

And yet if you have been working, your clothes are dirty, oily, and sweaty, and you get caught in a downpour, the water that drips off of you, your clothing, and the top of your trailer, dotted or covered with bird droppings is somehow less toxic than the gray water which results from taking a sun shower with biodegradable soap. Sounds like some of the gray water disposal regulations are based in contamination hyperbole. This differentiation is a bit of a contradiction to me and I worked for one of Florida’s water management districts for 22 years.

The problem with sun shower graywater, as opposed to being caught in the rain, is the concentration of graywater at one small location. The impact question is “what if everyone did what I want to do?” What would be the result of two people at a campsite taking a sunshower (even with biodegradable soap) every day for 5 months out of the year? Quite different from one person doing it occasionally, but, if there were no rules, what might be the result? Collecting your run off in a tub or basin and disposing of it according to the land management guidelines is a different matter, but run off on the ground is something else. If you aren’t in a campground, taking a sunshower in a different area each time using a natural cleanser would be treated like dishwashing water—200 feet from streams.

[PatrickTXFL]

Originally Posted by CPW

And yet if you have been working, your clothes are dirty, oily, and sweaty, and you get caught in a downpour, the water that drips off of you, your clothing, and the top of your trailer, dotted or covered with bird droppings is somehow less toxic than the gray water which results from taking a sun shower with biodegradable soap. Sounds like some of the gray water disposal regulations are based in contamination hyperbole. This differentiation is a bit of a contradiction to me and I worked for one of Florida’s water management districts for 22 years.

Birds are considered nature. Human stinky butts are not. Doubt anyone would scold you rinsing off your face or doing a wash rag arm pit wipe. Hanging a shower stripping down and washing the area your underwear cover is not considered to be safe to others and that's why they don't want it on the ground. Makes perfect sense to me.

[thrifty bill]

Arguing campground rules is a waste of time IMHO. Best to choose a different campground instead. Rules do not need to be logical or science based.

[RogerDat]

It does really boil down to the difference in impact from one person or an occasional person vs the large number who will visit the park and camp in the same spot. The cumulative problem is where the issue comes in.

One can argue that the impact is insignificant or not very harmful in the individual case but in the cumulative the argument will fail. Also if one can "dump" a solar shower then why not drain the gray water tank on an RV after all it is the same sort of thing. The answer again comes down to cumulative harm of 35 gallon tank compared to the couple of gallons used in a shower.

Not really any good way to differentiate between family of 4 using some sort of portable shower in a cabana tent with the water running across or into the ground or a family of 4 draining the holding tank after showers.

I seldom if every use more than a small aluminum coffee pot of hot water for dishes, maybe cut with a cup of cold to wash and the straight hot water as a sanitizing rinse. I can tell you if you toss that into the bushes near camp in the Huron National forest you will find "visitors" showing up, if nothing else it draws flies. If you are less lucky racoons or skunks. Now in the forest one can dig a "cat hole" to pour that small amount of water from dishes but if one was in a rustic campground used by a hundred families over the season that would probably end up a mess.

Even small bits of food will draw rodents, and where the rodents congregate so to do snakes. Snakes generally do very poorly around humans. And in parts of the country where venomous snakes are more common dogs can do poorly around snakes.

It is true that most rules are written to prevent people doing something that left to their own devices people would want to do. One wouldn't need penalties for violating fire restrictions in a drought if there weren't folks who would have campfires despite the fire restrictions.

I'm thinking on a longer trip I may need to think about how to have a water collection tray or basin that I can dump in a portable gray water tank for showers. At least something I can hang my head over to wash my hair. Because I know I will be camping in places that restrict dumping of wash water.

Some parks apparently also frown on people putting up a cabana tent for a place to pee on the ground. Guess that is a real problem that rangers deal with. Considering what happens to the bushes in the park where the dogs all go.... I figure aside from the ick factor, and potential odor, if enough people do it in the same location it could kill a good size tree or vegetation in a season. Especially in the more arid areas that lack enough rain to dilute the ammonia. In our yard the grass does well around the spot, but the spot tends to die if we have a dry spell.

[C&G in FL]

OK. First off, for all those who have taken exception and quoted my comments, I never suggested anyone dump gray water indiscriminately or break campground rules. And to suggest bird droppings are “nature” and therefore imply less toxic than “stinky human butts” is simply wrong; both are nature and BOTH can result in health hazards to other living things whether they are humans or other critters. And being concentrated from a sun shower versus spread all over the place, well, it is still “contamination” (if you want to call it that) going into the environment, and likely, in a very confined area around a campsite unless the person shedding the “contaminated” water is hiking a trail. And suggesting that it will ultimately attract snakes has me rolling on the floor laughing my “stinky human butt” off. The truth is that rodents like mice and rats (and squirrels that are typically omnipresent in almost all campgrounds seek food chunks that are much larger than the particles is dishwater. Why aren’t campgrounds loaded with squirrel hunting snakes? Those that can threaten dogs are typically venemous. I have yet to see a venemous snake in a Florida campground in the 36 years I have lived and camped in this State. And yes Virginia, Florida has all 4 of the well known venemous snakes (rattle, copperhead, water moccasin, and coral).
My previous comments were based solely on the “toxicity” of gray water and its potential effect on the environment. Food particles and biodegradable soaps are quickly broken down. Even so, gray water can smell if it contains food particles and definitely does not belong in a crowded campground as it can be offensive to others. When boondocking in a remote area that ceases to be a concern. Shower water with biodegradable soap is a different class of gray water. Unless you are a sloppy eater, it doesn’t contain many food particles and it does not generally attract pests. And my comments are a result of working in a regulatory agency in a section dedicated to water conservation activities. Read between the lines.....that includes water of all qualities. I have to wonder how many people posting in this thread really have any practical knowledge when it comes to gray water disposal or if their statements reflect what they have heard from other unknowing persons.
While I stated in a previous post I stated that lots of rules are put in place by uninformed/uneducated people. A lot of rules, e.g., in campgrounds are established because of abusive practices. Campground owners have an inherent right to establish these rules. I have heard some lie stating that the rules are in place to comply with “State laws” when no such law exists. But think of Walmart. The number of Walmart’s allowing overnight stops is diminishing. Ask yourself why and the answer is obvious. It is because of the small number of people who overstep their welcome and abuse the privilege (grilling in the parking lot, setting out chairs, even dumping waste tanks in storm drains or on the parking lot just prior to departure) these Walmarts initially granted. That handful of idiots make us all suffer. It is far easier to ban something than to confront individuals who are unwilling or too stupid to employ moderation or prudence in their actions.

Can we please stop beating a dead horse?