Tow Vehicle - Page 3 - Fiberglass RV
Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-14-2015, 07:30 PM   #41
Member
 
Name: George
Trailer: In the market
New Mexico
Posts: 40
I've learned a lot from all you wonderful egg people. Thanks to all. My bottom line answer involves owner's manuals and tow capacities, and Robert's comment about "margin". I plan to buy the biggest, "baddest", "meanest" tow vehicle I can afford. That should erase any unease going over mountain passes. An F-350 tugging a 13' Casita? Bad idea? I'm beginning to think it would almost make sense!!!
George in New Mex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 07:36 PM   #42
Senior Member
 
Bob Miller's Avatar
 
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
Ford F-350 ?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by George in New Mex View Post
I've learned a lot from all you wonderful egg people. Thanks to all. My bottom line answer involves owner's manuals and tow capacities, and Robert's comment about "margin". I plan to buy the biggest, "baddest", "meanest" tow vehicle I can afford. That should erase any unease going over mountain passes. An F-350 tugging a 13' Casita? Bad idea? I'm beginning to think it would almost make sense!!!
Just driving a Ford F-350 down the road, unless you are pulling a very big trailer or really need it in your job, doesn't make any sense at all, but Ford is counting on lots of peeps doing just that.... LOL

Did I mention "compensating"?



Bob Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 07:47 PM   #43
MC1
Senior Member
 
MC1's Avatar
 
Name: Wayne
Trailer: Airstream Sold, Nest Fan
Ontario
Posts: 2,002
Quote:
Originally Posted by George in New Mex View Post
An F-350 tugging a 13' Casita? Bad idea? I'm beginning to think it would almost make sense!!!
George.... There is such a thing as the "belt and suspender" crowd that "support" that idea.

On the other side of the coin other's believe the right sized vehicle for the trailer is the way to go. There are so many advantages. A not so large, lighter weight TV when set up right is very nimble and easier to control, has less weight when stopping, and in many cases get better gas mileage especially when not towing the trailer.
Attached Images
 
MC1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 08:06 PM   #44
Member
 
Name: George
Trailer: In the market
New Mexico
Posts: 40
I hope you know I was kidding about that 350. Don't want to be too close to the safety line, either. Will check out all the numbers to reach a sensible decision. Even so, I think it was MC1 who said a good decision on paper won't even guarantee a perfect setup. C'est la vie.
George in New Mex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 08:07 PM   #45
Member
 
Name: George
Trailer: In the market
New Mexico
Posts: 40
Oh man, MC1! I looove that photo!
George in New Mex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 09:10 PM   #46
Senior Member
 
EllPea in CA's Avatar
 
Name: Ellpea
Trailer: 1989 Lil Bigfoot
CA
Posts: 1,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
...the hitch itself which will consist of a much larger drawbar assembly and ball mount as well as a pair of long spring bars that lead back from the hitch itself and are connected, usually with a chain arrangement, to brackets on the trailer.

A warning, not all vehicles are designed to be used with a WDH, especially unit constriction vehicles, and not all trailer have frames strong enough to be used with a WDH.

1. what is a "unit constriction vehicle"?
2. do we know which FGRV's have frames not strong enough to be used with a WDH?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
Here are some images of typical WDH systems:
https://www.google.com/search?q=weig...FQhVkgodBcUPsw
In looking at these images, I was half expecting to see a setup like we had with my long-lamented (even though stick-built) vintage Kencraft. I seem to remember two smaller balls on either side of the larger one which attached to the trailer hitch? There were chains involved also, although I don't recall this setup was related to *leveling* the trailer, which many of the images in this link seem to indicate.

3. Does a WDH involve extra *balls* on either side of the receiver?
4. Does weight distribution mean the weight of the trailer is evenly distributed front and back by leveling, or does it mean the weight on the hitch is "spread out" by attaching to more than one spot on the tow bar?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Miller View Post
And be wary if someone tells you "It is amazing how much more the vehicle can tow with the addition of an aftermarket accessory or mod." The vehicles weight specifications are an upper limit. Some mods may make it a better tow, but those weight number are cast in stone. If you think not, as I often suggest, ask your insurance agent and your lawyer before trusting that mechanic.
Well, this is my question. I think I need to know if my V70's max tow weight of 3400 lbs is with or without a WDH. (am still trying to determine if the factory approved hitch includes WDH).

Thanks for the continued learning experience here!

LP
EllPea in CA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 09:59 PM   #47
Senior Member
 
Glenn Baglo's Avatar
 
Trailer: Escape 17 ft
Posts: 8,317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellpea in CA View Post
So I've been googling V70 and factory hitch and WDH. It sounds like WDH does not work with the factory hitch and the 1.25" receiver.
You've already done the research and answered your own question. The factory 1.25" receiver will not accept a WDH. WDH requires a class III 2" receiver.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
Glenn Baglo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 10:29 PM   #48
Senior Member
 
EllPea in CA's Avatar
 
Name: Ellpea
Trailer: 1989 Lil Bigfoot
CA
Posts: 1,379
Whoops, my bad. I should have said the after market tow bar for V70 does not accept... still haven't found needed details on the factory hitch. Sorry for the confusion on that one!

LP
EllPea in CA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 10:49 PM   #49
Senior Member
 
Glenn Baglo's Avatar
 
Trailer: Escape 17 ft
Posts: 8,317
Not sure what you are referring to by "tow bar".
Got to get your terms correct in order to ask the right questions and get the right answers.
The hitch receiver is what is attached to your vehicle. The weight distribution hitch goes into the hitch receiver.
Your hitch receiver is 1 1/4" so it is too small for a 2" hitch and not rated, in any event, for a WDH. Some 2" hitch receivers are rated class II and can't be used with a WDH, which requires class III.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
Glenn Baglo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2015, 06:05 AM   #50
Senior Member
 
Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
Posts: 2,445
I think that the tow ratings cut in half applies to trucks only. No truck is approved (as far as I know) to tow more than 5000 lbs without a WDH.
For other cars etc. this does not apply as many do not approve the use of a WDH anyway because of the chassis design and structure that the hitch is mounted to.
Below a combined weight of 10,000 lbs it is pretty much run what ya brung as far as regulations. Over 10,000 lbs combined weights the regulations for commercial use begin.
redbarron55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2015, 06:35 AM   #51
Senior Member
 
honda03842's Avatar
 
Name: Norm and Ginny
Trailer: Scamp 16
Florida
Posts: 7,517
JD,

I'm very aggressive about the DOT statement because it's the type of statement that will be repeated over and over and left unchallenged.

Unfortunately there are all kinds of statements to beginners that end up suggesting more tow vehicle than necessary, in some measure creating 'barriers to entrance'. From the literally unsupported DOT statement to the requirement for margin between listed tow rating and 'useful' tow rating.

The reality is George plans just a couple of trips a year, planning to sleep in the trailer more than he will be driving it.
__________________
Norm and Ginny

2014 Honda Odyssey
1991 Scamp 16
honda03842 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2015, 07:07 AM   #52
Senior Member
 
Jon in AZ's Avatar
 
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,925
Registry
Norm, I will join you in challenging that statement.

My 2WD Pilot, like your Odyssey, has a 3500/350 tow rating, and the owner's manual states, "use of a weight-distributing hitch is not recommended." It is patently absurd to think that the tow rating is then cut in half! Or maybe Honda anticipated the DOT and has already halved the capacity, so that if I use a WDH (it doesn't actually say I can't, just that Honda won't recommend that I do)- then I can tow 7000 pounds!

Seriously, what I have seen in manufacturer towing specs (not DOT regulations) for a number of trucks marketed for heavy-duty towing goes something like this: towing capacity without WDH is XXX pounds; towing capacity with WDH is XXX pounds. The rating without WDH was substantially lower, perhaps half.

I, too, would like to know if there is any such DOT regulation and whether it has any relevance to light- and medium-duty towing with passenger vehicles.

Elipea, "unit construction" (aka, unibody) means the frame of the vehicle and core upper-body structure are welded into one solid unit. Most modern passenger vehicles, including many newer SUVs, are built this way. The advantages include lighter weight and increased stiffness for better handling. Manufacturers of many unibody vehicles do not recommend using a WDH, and I suspect one reason may be the different way these vehicles are designed to handle stresses (I am speculating here…).

The alternative, older construction method is called "body-on-frame." The upper body structure is welded separately from the frame and bolted on. It is still used on most pick-up trucks (except a few passenger car-based trucks like the Honda Ridgeline) and some larger, truck-based SUVs (Tahoe/Suburban/Yukon, Expedition, Sequoia, 4Runner?, Armada, to name a few). It allows for a stronger frame for heavy-duty use. Use of a WDH is common in this class of vehicle.


Name:   Unibody.jpeg
Views: 85
Size:  9.6 KB
Jon in AZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2015, 08:28 AM   #53
Senior Member
 
Bob Miller's Avatar
 
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
FULL STOP PLEASE......

Ellpea did not mention the year or model of the V70 being used, but the owners manual seems to bode bad news...


Here is the info as shown on page 274 for the 2010 V70 (and is typical for several other years I checked)
Ref: http://new.volvocars.com/ownersdocs/...nersManual.pdf


Max towing weight w/brakes = 3300 lbs
Max Tongue weight = 165 lbs


That limited tongue weight suggests at least two issues must be considered:


1) That the attachment points for the factory hitch may be limited as to strength, basically ruling out a WDH anyway.


2) Using the 10% rule, that actual maximum trailer weight is really only 1,650 lbs, or 1/2 the factory weight


Please let us know the exact year of your V70 and if it has a different specification.


BTW: Elsewhere in this same manual Volvo notes that while some after-market hitches may have higher ratings, that the factory ratings for the vehicle must still be followed.


And: In Volvo speak, the term "tow bar" was seen as being used for the drawbar/ball mount.



Bob Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2015, 08:50 AM   #54
Senior Member
 
Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
Posts: 2,445
As far as I know there is no DOT regulation for non commercial under 10,000 lb combined weight. I think that I remember that weight correctly. Almost all trailer and towing laws are at the state level and the state you are based / live in is the controlling factor (AFIK).
I have repeatedly looked for those oft referred to DOT regulations and I have found none for the Non-commercial under 10,000 lbs.

There is this on the subjest and one could look up the quoted section if desired. This may or may not apply to individuals towing and not companies. Since this is a regulation of Federal Motor Carrier Safety it probably only applies to companies who use these vehicles and not individuals towing for their own pleasures.

DOT Mandates May Apply When Using Trailers - Articles - Safety & Accident - Articles - Work Truck

These are just some of the numerous requirements outlined by the FMCSA in its regulations for commercial vehicles. Complete details are available online at Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration.

The regulations apply to:

Vehicles with a GVWR or gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of more than 10,000 lbs.
Vehicles with a GVWR of more than 26,000 lbs., which require commercial driver license (CDL).
Vehicles hauling hazardous materials, whether operating across state lines or totally within one state.
Trucks or for-hire small buses designed to carry more than 16 people, including the driver.
The regulations are lengthy and potentially confusing. For example, operators can drive 3/4- or 1/2-ton pickups without requiring a DOT sticker, if there is no trailer attached. But adding a trailer may put it over the 10,001-pound GCWR regulation limit.

For that reason, Sprint Nextel, for example, uses magnetic DOT number decals that it attaches only when its pickups are towing a trailer.

“If you’re not towing, the GCWR is not in effect, and you don’t have to display any signage. And the DOT won’t bother you,” says Timberlake.

On days that any of its vehicles meet the definition of a commercial motor vehicle, the company also requires that drivers conduct a pre-trip inspection and be satisfied the truck is in safe operating condition, as specified by Sections 396.13 and 392.7 of the FMSCR.
redbarron55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2015, 09:05 AM   #55
Senior Member
 
Jon in AZ's Avatar
 
Name: Jon
Trailer: 2008 Scamp 13 S1
Arizona
Posts: 11,925
Registry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellpea in CA View Post
...do we know which FGRV's have frames not strong enough to be used with a WDH?

...Does weight distribution mean the weight of the trailer is evenly distributed front and back by leveling, or does it mean the weight on the hitch is "spread out" by attaching to more than one spot on the tow bar?

Well, this is my question. I think I need to know if my V70's max tow weight of 3400 lbs is with or without a WDH. (am still trying to determine if the factory approved hitch includes WDH)...
A WDH is meant to level the trailer-tow vehicle combination front-to-back when towing. It is used when high tongue weight causes the front of the trailer and back of the tow vehicle to drop. That causes the front of the tow vehicle to rise, which affects steering, braking, and, in the case of FWD, traction.

A WDH works by prying on the frames at the point of attachment. Weight is transferred through the vehicle's frame forward to the front axle and through the trailer's frame backward to the trailer's axle. Frames and suspensions have to be engineered to withstand such stresses.

Your question about your Volvo is a very valid one, especially in view of Bob's last post, and needs to be clarified through your owner's manual or through Volvo of America. There is a significant disconnect between a gross trailer weight limit of 3300 pounds and a tongue weight of 165 pounds. I'm not sure if it means the hitch attachment is weak, as Bob suggests, or if the rear suspension is limited in its weight-carrying capacity.

As far as what trailers can withstand the use of WDH, that's an open question in my mind. I am sure the smallest trailers, like my Scamp, are not designed for a WDH. I'm equally sure the largest trailers, like the >20' Bigfoots, are. But in between…??
Jon in AZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2015, 09:33 AM   #56
Senior Member
 
Bob Miller's Avatar
 
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
There is an illustration of attaching the Volvo factory hitch in one of the several V70 manuals on-line, and it shows that only 4 cap screws are used and all are into the bottom surface of the unit body construction, not to encouraging at all for a wdh.



Bob Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2015, 09:34 AM   #57
Senior Member
 
Name: JD
Trailer: Scamp 16 Modified (BIGLY)
Florida
Posts: 2,445
There is no 10% "rule". Common usage in the US is 10 - 15% weight in the tongue, but in Europe it is common to use 7%. The key is to KNOW what the weight is on the tongue and also have a properly setup trailer with the major weight near the axle for a low polar moment of inertia.
The tests on trailers from the 70's bears this out in repeated testing.
Modern front wheel drive cars actually handle this better since their weight bias is toward the front as well. Trucks need more weight on the hitch since they often handle poorly even without a trailer as compared to cars with higher centers of gravity ans unsophisticated suspensions.
On my VW TDI wagon rear suspension is a 5 link IRS and it has negative camber and also a small amount of toe in for better stability that a truck would not have with it's solid rear axle. The roll center of the truck rear axle and the trailer with a solid axle are both very low at the surface of the road, giving a greater tipping tendency as compared to most modern cars.
With the 7% loading on my TDI and the 200 lb hitch rating this would equal 2875 lbs ( I think). I am using this as the limit although the car is rated to tow 3500 lbs from a power and mechanical standpoint. (All above is from the hotly disputed European ratings.) I am not recommending anyone else follow my lead, but my TDI is setup with the factor Towbar and Trailer Electronic Stabilization, just like would be required if towing in the Eurozone by law. There are no comparable laws or regulations in the US and the requirements for equipment and testing is basically unregulated in this country. (for those who want to jump in and say how wrong they are in operating trailers etc.)
redbarron55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2015, 09:51 AM   #58
Senior Member
 
Bob Miller's Avatar
 
Trailer: Class A Motorhome
Posts: 7,912
Lets see... I believe that we are talking about a Volvo V-70 in the U.S. of A., Other vehicles and countries are not a part of this equation.


Particularly for a new trailer owner, let's stick with the 10%+ "Rule of Thumb" for tongue weight. Experienced owners may well be able to get by with less, but I don't see any creditable sources in the U.S. suggesting lower values, and no one is backing the 5% value that Volvo is suggesting.



Bob Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2015, 10:38 AM   #59
Senior Member
 
Rob Outlaw's Avatar
 
Name: Rob
Trailer: Oliver Legacy Elite II, #70
Montana
Posts: 198
Folks I am swamped with work right now, so only have a short amount of time for the next few days to catch up on this thread. Have had a few PM's requesting more information regarding my original statement about WDH's vs without and how that affects tongue and tow ratings. I am attaching a quick and dirty photo of the decal/sticker found on the underside of my factory installed receiver hitch that states the tongue and tow rates with and w/o WDH. I would assume most all new vehicles with factory installed tow packages would have something comparable. It is worth noting my 04 Tundra DC did not have a similar sticker, nor did my Tacoma before that either. One CS rep at Ford told me most likely the vast majority of people are towing way beyond their tongue/tow rates based upon this specification.

But in the meantime below are a few links that will provide more information on this situation. For some of you it will be (maybe) a read and it and weep scenario and for others no big deal. I do believe this is important however and as stated so many times I firmly believe you cannot have enough tow vehicle vs getting by the least amount possible regardless of the what you're towing. Ok so Waynes photo might be a bit over the top and funny as hell to boot.

Standardized Tow Rating Procedure Finally Gaining Traction | Edmunds.com

and the link to the actual J2807 specs, however I could not find a successful link that completely describes what these testing procedures really are. If someone has more time to do that great.

J2807: Performance Requirements for Determining Tow-Vehicle Gross Combination Weight Rating and Trailer Weight Rating - SAE International

And finally here is the sticker decal under my F150

It is worth noting when I brought this up with the good folks at Oliver like so many they had never heard of such a thing and because the Olivers tow so well even without a WDH subsequently they did not use or install them on new deliveries. However they do now offer as an option the Andersen WDH. I don't use one and feel my Elite II tows great without it even though I am right at the threshold of limitations without using one. In the short time we have owned our Oliver already we have had a few emergency situations and am thankful I DID NOT have something smaller than my F150 to handle this.

Ok thats my two cents worth for now. Will try and catch up later, but hope everyone finds this at least somewhat helpful.
Attached Thumbnails
photo.jpg  
Rob Outlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2015, 11:09 AM   #60
MC1
Senior Member
 
MC1's Avatar
 
Name: Wayne
Trailer: Airstream Sold, Nest Fan
Ontario
Posts: 2,002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon in AZ View Post
The alternative, older construction method is called "body-on-frame." It allows for a stronger frame for heavy-duty use.

Attachment 86705
Body on frame! Heavy duty??? They are nothing to write home about.

The new SUV's which are top rated tow vehicles are unibody....ie... Ford Expedition, VW Touareg, BMW X5, etc. A WDH works great on them.
Attached Thumbnails
truck body on frame.jpg  
MC1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
oliver


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New tow vehicle possibility? Toyota RAV 4? Tom Trostel General Chat 11 12-07-2005 12:15 PM
Searching for best tow vehicle for Casita 17' Legacy Posts Towing, Hitching, Axles and Running Gear 28 04-26-2003 12:33 AM
New Tow vehicle Legacy Posts Jokes, Stories & Tall Tales 20 11-15-2002 06:36 AM
FWD Tow Vehicle?: Thanks Legacy Posts Care and Feeding of Molded Fiberglass Trailers 9 11-12-2002 03:42 PM
D'ya wash tow vehicle while traveling? Legacy Posts Care and Feeding of Molded Fiberglass Trailers 8 09-26-2002 08:14 PM

» Trailer Showcase

the GDec

Gina D.

Laika

AnnKola
» Upcoming Events
No events scheduled in
the next 465 days.
» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.