12v battery recommendation

[Juana]

I have a 2008, 16' scamp that needs a new battery. Recommendations?
Please and thanks all!

[ShelbyM]

Take your old one to Walmart or Autozone etc for a match. Label the wires as you disconnect so you can connect the new one properly.

[Gerry]

I have always used reconditioned, we cell, Batteries that I would by from an RV dealer near us, they hence sold out to Campers world and no more good deals like that.
I used the last one, an Interstate, Deep cycle, battery for about 4 years and jinxed myself while on a 2 week camping trip in the National Forest in NH. Boondocking with my 100 W panel.
Woke on the second day after telling the wife "next investment is going to be a Gel Battery", Sure enough Battery died.
Off to nearest Campers World and got a 12 volt Gel battery.
The remainder of the 2 weeks went off without a hitch and upon the last day checked the voltage on Battery and it had 13.5 volts.
Boondocking with this battery, using lights and water pump for showers is not a problem for extended stays. Even in tree cover!

[jwcolby123]

Originally Posted by Juana

I have a 2008, 16' scamp that needs a new battery. Recommendations?
Please and thanks all!

If you never want to buy another battery, then a LiFePO4. Should last you 10-20 years. I bought one and am thrilled with the thing.

Of course there are a ton of whatabouts... I do not live in the far north cold.

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by Juana

I have a 2008, 16' scamp that needs a new battery. Recommendations?

You don't give us much to go on, but a 100 ah SOK Lithium has great reviews and should last 6-15 years, until the BMS gives up the ghost.

Nobody really knows how long the average lithium will survive. It's just in the last couple of years they seem to have worked out the bugs. I thought it was sad when Will Prouse deleted the Battle Born failure thread a few years ago.

I plan on buying either two 100 ah SOK's or one 206 ah SOK within the next six months. However a Scamp should be able to get by with one 100 ah lithium.

Enjoy,

Perry

[jwcolby123]

The Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) battery makes a great house battery. It provides about twice the usable power (on a single cycle) of a Lead acid (PbH2SO4) and many times the total charge / discharge cycles. The kinks have been worked out, and if one buys from a reputable manufacturer they make superb house batteries.

They do cost more. How much more depends on many things, starting with the cost of the lead acid battery, how many cycles you will get with that battery and how deeply you discharge that battery. And of course the same with the LiFePO4 batteries. Because they last longer and can provide more watts / discharge cycle, I find them to be a good house battery.

Lead Acid batteries have been around forever and they have been modified to create 'deep discharge' batteries. In general this is done by increasing the lead plate thickness, i.e. using fewer but thicker lead plates. 'Starter batteries' are designed from the ground up to provide an extremely high current for a short period. They do this with thin lead plates and lots of them. In both cases, every charge / discharge cycle causes some small part of the lead to permanently bind to the acid and ends up settling as a sludge in the bottom of the battery, effectively "corroding away" the lead plates (and using up the acid). So starter batteries can provide higher currents for short periods. Deep discharge batteries can provide lesser currents but for longer periods.

In the end, it is just a fact that lead acid has a shorter lifespan, a lower total charge / discharge quantity than a quality LiFePO4 battery. They really don't like deep discharges or being left discharged. And they self discharge at a somewhat high rate, which can lead to destroyed batteries if left sitting not on a trickle charger. However they have better low temperature charge capabilities.

LiFEPo4 batteries aren't perfect either. Charging them at a high rate below about 32 degrees F will quickly destroy them. This and their higher initial cost are the primary disadvantages of the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. They all have an electronic 'battery minder' which manages things. Their advantages however is that they can be discharged clear down to 10 volts without damaging the battery. There isn't much power left below about 12v, so that advantage is really just that damaging them by over draining them is harder. They can be damaged however by draining them all the way down and then leaving them in that state for an extended period. They do in fact self discharge, just at a slower rate than lead acid batteries. That said they can be charged half way and left for years because they self discharge so slowly.

Additionally their 'lifespan' is much higher than Lead Acid. A quality LiFePO4 will generally still have about 80% of their total storage capacity after 3500 full charge / discharge cycles, whereas Lead acid batteries have a lifespan of 50 to 1000 charge / discharge cycles. YMMV of course.

https://www.ecosoch.com/lead-acid-battery/

This is an interesting article about batteries, including temperature stuff:

https://www.takomabattery.com/unders...fepo4-battery/


https://ipowerqueen.com/pages/review

[Juana]

Ha ha, that is exactly what happened to me!
Thanks for your response

[Juana]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

You don't give us much to go on, but a 100 ah SOK Lithium has great reviews and should last 6-15 years, until the BMS gives up the ghost.

Nobody really knows how long the average lithium will survive. It's just in the last couple of years they seem to have worked out the bugs. I thought it was sad when Will Prouse deleted the Battle Born failure thread a few years ago.

I plan on buying either two 100 ah SOK's or one 206 ah SOK within the next six months. However a Scamp should be able to get by with one 100 ah lithium.

Enjoy,

Perry

Thanks Perry!

[Juana]

Originally Posted by jwcolby123

The Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) battery makes a great house battery. It provides about twice the usable power (on a single cycle) of a Lead acid (PbH2SO4) and many times the total charge / discharge cycles. The kinks have been worked out, and if one buys from a reputable manufacturer they make superb house batteries.

They do cost more. How much more depends on many things, starting with the cost of the lead acid battery, how many cycles you will get with that battery and how deeply you discharge that battery. And of course the same with the LiFePO4 batteries. Because they last longer and can provide more watts / discharge cycle, I find them to be a good house battery.

Lead Acid batteries have been around forever and they have been modified to create 'deep discharge' batteries. In general this is done by increasing the lead plate thickness, i.e. using fewer but thicker lead plates. 'Starter batteries' are designed from the ground up to provide an extremely high current for a short period. They do this with thin lead plates and lots of them. In both cases, every charge / discharge cycle causes some small part of the lead to permanently bind to the acid and ends up settling as a sludge in the bottom of the battery, effectively "corroding away" the lead plates (and using up the acid). So starter batteries can provide higher currents for short periods. Deep discharge batteries can provide lesser currents but for longer periods.

In the end, it is just a fact that lead acid has a shorter lifespan, a lower total charge / discharge quantity than a quality LiFePO4 battery. They really don't like deep discharges or being left discharged. And they self discharge at a somewhat high rate, which can lead to destroyed batteries if left sitting not on a trickle charger. However they have better low temperature charge capabilities.

LiFEPo4 batteries aren't perfect either. Charging them at a high rate below about 32 degrees F will quickly destroy them. This and their higher initial cost are the primary disadvantages of the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. They all have an electronic 'battery minder' which manages things. Their advantages however is that they can be discharged clear down to 10 volts without damaging the battery. There isn't much power left below about 12v, so that advantage is really just that damaging them by over draining them is harder. They can be damaged however by draining them all the way down and then leaving them in that state for an extended period. They do in fact self discharge, just at a slower rate than lead acid batteries. That said they can be charged half way and left for years because they self discharge so slowly.

Additionally their 'lifespan' is much higher than Lead Acid. A quality LiFePO4 will generally still have about 80% of their total storage capacity after 3500 full charge / discharge cycles, whereas Lead acid batteries have a lifespan of 50 to 1000 charge / discharge cycles. YMMV of course.

https://www.ecosoch.com/lead-acid-battery/

This is an interesting article about batteries, including temperature stuff:

https://www.takomabattery.com/unders...fepo4-battery/


https://ipowerqueen.com/pages/review

Thanks JWColby!

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by jwcolby123

Additionally their 'lifespan' is much higher than Lead Acid. A quality LiFePO4 will generally still have about 80% of their total storage capacity after 3500 full charge / discharge cycles, whereas Lead acid batteries have a lifespan of 50 to 1000 charge / discharge cycles. YMMV of course.

The jury on the lifespan of LiFePO4 has just started. Only about three years ago Battle Born started selling "reliable" lithium batteries. When I was looking in early 2021 only Battle Born had a decent outlook for their lifespan, but by the end of 2021 SOK started making their move. A quality BMS is everything in a LiFePO4 battery.

The lifespan of leaded batteries has been measured over decades, not so with LiFePO4. As we know cheap batteries don't last as long as their better rivals. Our friends are on their eight year with their Lifeline AGM batteries. Do all AGM batteries last as long? NO! If he had purchased a lithium in 2016 would it still be working today? Perhaps, but probably no. His problem is he doesn't want a battery he has to remove every time it gets 20 below in Minnesota.

Lifespan in the laboratory is one thing. Put it in the hands of a user is another. The lithium cells are fairly robust, but the BMS can and does fail. We currently don't know the lifespan of a BMS in the hands of a user exposed to heat, cold, and poor management in the real world. Six to ten years from now we'll begin to really know the lifespan of a lithium battery, but right now it's just a labratory estimate.

Batteries have always been a crap shoot when it comes to lifespan. I doubt LiFePO4 is any different over time.

I do know that LiFePO4 SHOULD last at least six years, but question the timeframes their sales teams have touted. There are always owners like my friends with their AGM's, but in reality the average user either screws up or the battery does.

Am I getting a LiFePO4? Yes, but I won't expect 10 or more years. I'd be happy with six. By then LiFePO4 will be a fading memory. Lithium production is just not environmentally friendly and is rather scarce, especially considering future needs. We'll be seeing either sodium or silicon batteries by then, but until then (some sodium batteries will be available in 2023) LiFePO4 is the best bang for the buck.

For those of us in cold climates heaters are an option if you either have reliable electricity in the winter or trust the BMS to use battery power to heat the battery. LiFePO4 cells are ruined at 20 below. These aren't Tesla batteries that are used at least once a week.

LiFePO4 is currently the one I recommend to those who don't have to deal with extreme cold, like here in Minnesota and Canada, unless you're willing to remove your batteries to prevent their freezing. My back and the battery location in our Escape 5.0 told me to get SiO2 instead and not worry about BMS or freezing. I'm considering two, 27 pound, 100ah batteries for our new-to-us Bigfoot. Their location will be easily accessable, and at 27 pounds easy to remove for winter.

Ten years from now I'll find out if LiFePO4 was the correct choice, but I sure won't listen to ad copy writers who claim that wondful lifespan. Again, I'll be happy with six years.

Enjoy,

Perry

[jwcolby123]

Perry is correct, extreme cold is somewhat harder to deal with for a LiFePO4. That said, the problem can be actually less than you might think. The reason is that the problem for LiFePO4 comes from low temp charging. So leaving them off a charger during the winter pretty much solves the problem. They are not damaged by using them in the cold, just charging them in the cold. And their self discharge rate is very low (though still real) so if they are charged up before storing it for the winter and then just disconnect one of the posts, the problem goes away.

The same cannot be said for the lead acid, you need to treat them differently. The lead acid will self discharge somewhat quickly and they don't like a low state of charge. But charging them at a low temp is not particularly bad for them so you can leave them on a trickle charger in pretty cold weather, NOT true for a LiFePO4, but you don't need to trickle charge LiFePO4 except for long term storage (years).

If you live in a very cold place and want to actually use the camper in that very cold environment, then keeping the LiFePO4 battery inside the camper (above 32 degrees) works. You can charge at will, just make sure the battery location is above 32.

The other thing about LiFePO4 is that they are about 40% of the weight of an 'equivalent' @h lead acid. And that is for a direct amp to amp comparison. Additionally you can get much higher discharge rates and discharge depths vs a lead acid, so in effect you actually get about twice the actual performance from the LiFePO4. So now the 'weight per amp hour' is essentially about 20% of the actual equivalent lead acid. IOW a LiFePO4 will weigh about 28 lbs and give a very real twice the performance of a lead acid weighing about 65-70 lbs. The upshot is that moving them around is MUCH less back breaking.

Additionally you can discharge a LiFePO4 down to 10 volts, which would literally kill a lead acid. The battery minder will cut off the battery below 10v so you literally cannot discharge them too far. Just don't store them at 10v because they will eventually self discharge further and damage the battery.

IMO, LiFePO4 makes a very good house battery, and has many advantages over a long life lead acid. Which is not to say that people can't love their lead acids.

I only started using them 2 years ago, and I do actually expect 10 years from mine. Maybe 20. The years are predicated on discharge / charge cycles, which are predicated on 1 full cycle per day for 10 years (3500 cycles). That is a full discharge / charge, every day for 10 years, at the end of which the battery will still have about 80% of its initial storage capacity. The manufacturers can and have actually tested them for this number of cycles. The tech is capable.

I don't use mine that way. I use my RV only on the weekend, and even then I am often plugged in. So my real rate is probably closer to one full cycle per week at most. I fully expect my grand kids to eventually replace the thing.

The point really is that I replaced my lead acid in my various RVs many times over the 30 years I have been camping. I fully expect to never replace this battery over the next 20 years. We shall see.

[theoldwizard1]

Originally Posted by jwcolby123

LiFEPo4 batteries aren't perfect either. Charging them at a high rate below about 32 degrees F will quickly destroy them. This and their higher initial cost are the primary disadvantages of the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. They all have an electronic 'battery minder' which manages things.

This is true for most "assembled" batteries. Some even have built-in heaters to keep them above freezing so that they still can be used.

If you are a DIYer and ae going to build your own battery pack (and save a lot of money) make sure your battery management system includes temperature monitoring.

The only other down side is that older converter/chargers may NOT have proper setting for LiFePO4 batteries.


Having said this, if LiFePO4 are just not in your budget, a pair of 6V golf cart batteries is a good alternative.

[Nick Loy]

Consider moving up to a 12 V lithium battery (100 A). You will also need to replace your charger and it will likely cost you (in total) close to $1000, but a lithium 100 amp battery is really more like a Lead Acid 200 amp battery. With Lead Acid you don't want to discharge it more than 50%. Also a Lithium battery lasts 3 to 10 times longer than a Lead Acid battery so in the long run it is less expensive.

[jwcolby123]

Originally Posted by Nick Loy

Consider moving up to a 12 V lithium battery (100 A). You will also need to replace your charger ....

I completely disagree. You can of course replace your charger, it won't hurt but it is NOT a requirement.

I purchased my LiFePO4 about two years ago and kept my many year old charger. In my case, the charger has a dongle which I mounted where I could see it. It normally starts flashing (charging state) when I plug in. If it doesn't I press a button on it and it starts flashing. The Lead Acid charge voltages are completely normal and fine for LiFePO4. LiFePO4 does not require a float charge, but any normal charger floats around 13v so that does no harm, just isn't needed, whereas for Lead Acid it is.

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by jwcolby123

I completely disagree. You can of course replace your charger, it won't hurt but it is NOT a requirement.

I purchased my LiFePO4 about two years ago and kept my many year old charger. In my case, the charger has a dongle which I mounted where I could see it. It normally starts flashing (charging state) when I plug in. If it doesn't I press a button on it and it starts flashing. The Lead Acid charge voltages are completely normal and fine for LiFePO4. LiFePO4 does not require a float charge, but any normal charger floats around 13v so that does no harm, just isn't needed, whereas for Lead Acid it is.

COMPLETELY disagree? Sorry, do not confuse what you're willing to accept in YOUR situation and then apply it to everyone.

If you're happy with what you have and it works for you that's fine. For some of us the existing charger IS inadequate for fully charging and cell balancing. As much as you've posted about LiFePO4 batteries you should know that by now. It's not a black and white world.

Perry

[jwcolby123]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

COMPLETELY disagree? Sorry, do not confuse what you're willing to accept in YOUR situation and then apply it to everyone.

If you're happy with what you have and it works for you that's fine. For some of us the existing charger IS inadequate for fully charging and cell balancing. As much as you've posted about LiFePO4 batteries you should know that by now. It's not a black and white world.

Perry

LOL, well as it happens I was responding to a "you WILL HAVE TO replace your charger." Simply not true. You MAY have to replace your charger.

[Ervin in Portland]

Much talk about longevity yet I think the main factor in longevity is the maintenance of the battery, especially in the winter months. My teardrop came with a cheapo Costco battery that lasted 10 years because I maintained it on a C-TEK battery charger. I replaced it two years ago with a Trojan deep cycle, cost a bit more yet specifically manufactured for RV and solar use.

[Perryb67]

Originally Posted by jwcolby123

LOL, well as it happens I was responding to a "you WILL HAVE TO replace your charger." Simply not true. You MAY have to replace your charger.

Then "completely" would not apply.
Enjoy,

Perry

[Iowa Dave]

I never won the Evadell Brink writing award in high School. Evadell was an old time English teacher with the emphasis on old. That prize went to the daughter of the other senior class English teacher. Funny how that worked. In fact, I never won any school awards. I did win the admiration of my chemistry teacher when my Dad wrote me an excuse for missing school a day after a 6 inch snow. Mr Schenkan said “the note says you were ill. What was the matter? My dad had coached me for just such a question. I replied “I had rabbit fever but a few hours of walking around outside in the fresh snow cured it.” He signed my paper and asked how we had done. I gave him a good report. He was envious. That was a teacher.
Iowa Dave

[jwcolby123]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

Then "completely" would not apply.
Enjoy,

Perry

No, in fact I completely disagree. All modern LiFePO4 claim to be drop in replacements for lead acid. The fact that you say you absolutely had to replace yours doesn't really speak to whether or not you absolutely had to.

I absolutely am superman. I just claimed that I am Superman. Am I superman?

You don't address why. The leveling thing is automatic in the battery. The BMS does it or doesn't do it. The charger plays little if any part in that, though charger manufacturers may tell you otherwise. If you have been sold a line by someone that sells chargers that said you had to use their charger to do something well...

Let me just say that Battle Born (the gold standard) says theirs is drop in replacement.

And in any case I completely disagree that EVERYONE HAS TO replace their charger. Yes they might NEED to for any of many reasons (way too low a charge current or whatever), but to say that "every one HAS TO" which is what the original statement that I disagreed with says, well,

I COMPLETELY disagree.