what to tow a Snoozy or Eggcamper with?

[Mike Magee]

Originally Posted by Andy B

Many people that view this site have little or no towing experience, someone without experience may think that those posting about exceeding limits are experts when they claim there is no difference between US and European cars.

Lots of people ignore tire or towing ratings and drive above 65 mph or tow more weight than the rating without having problems. They are taking the risk if they do that, however, it is entirely another story if they start recommending that others, who they do not even know, take the risk, and convince them by claiming that it is safe.

I do not believe that the towing limits are set "in various countries, apparently in an arbitrary manner".

Here is a link to a discussion of some differences in towing ability between US (2700 tow capacity) and European (4400 tow capacity) Subaru Outback that seem to be identical cars. Look at posts #9 and #12.
Towing 3000 lbs with the Outback - Subaru Outback - Subaru Outback Forums
Unless someone checked very carefully they would not notice the difference in shocks or 0.8" lower spring mounts and who knows what else that could make a big difference in an emergency situation. Post 12 also points out that European trailers have suspension differences as well.

I don't think anyone would decide against buying a car because the tow capacity was higher than they needed, but many would decide not to buy it if the tow capacity was lower than needed, so it does not make sense to me that a manufacturer would assign an arbitrary tow capacity. The higher the tow capacity, the more cars they will sell.

Absent a poster's actual claim of expert qualifications, no court will hold them to be an expert. Anyone who maintains in court that they relied on someone who sounded like an expert will be out of luck in that venue.

After reading the thread you referenced, I agree that one particular car with varying tow ratings has two minor suspension differences; the poster also stated that he knew of no other relevant differences.

Tire hop when braking is mentioned in the Subie thread as a possble consequence of not having trailer brakes. Rubbish. If my trailer tires hop when braking, I guarantee you I have set my brake controller incorrectly.

Manufacturers could certainly set tow capacities arbitrarily if their adversity to litigation outweighs the perceived benefit of increased sales (a benefit they probably do not fully realize).

[Andy B]

Originally Posted by Mike Magee

Manufacturers could certainly set tow capacities arbitrarily if their adversity to litigation outweighs the perceived benefit of increased sales (a benefit they probably do not fully realize).

If they are setting tow capacity based on the cost of litigation vs increased sales, that is calculated and not arbitrary at all.

Originally Posted by mcbrew

Unless the car company also sells trucks and SUVs which are much more profitable. If you convince everyone that they need to upgrade to a more profitable vehicle so that they can tow, then you have succeeded in business.

If the real reason for setting the tow rating lower in the US than in Europe is to steer people to a larger more profitable vehicle then, to use the Subaru example, they would be steering buyers from the Outback to the Tribeca which is the largest Subaru made. If that was the reason, then there should be no difference in the Tribeca tow capacity in the US and Europe since it is their largest vehicle. I will leave it to someone else to determine if the Tribeca tow capacities are different in the US and Europe or not.

The bottom line is that no one except for a few people at the companies that make the cars really knows the reason why the ratings are different. Even if you call them you will be talking with someone in marketing that does not have the facts. If someone does not know for sure, it is fine if they want to take a safety related risk personally, my objection is to promoting taking that risk to others which has been done in numerous posts and several topics on this board.

[honda03842]

Tow Vehicle Safety.

The first thing that concerns me is the tow vehicle's driver. Most people exceed their tire's ratings and drive too fast. We see it all the time in our travels. Even if the tires were rated for more than 65 mph, every driving risk increases dramatically with speed. Speed is a major causes of accidents. It's obvious most people want more speed and power. It seems to be true with trailers as it was with motorhomes, everyone wanted a diesel motorhome so they could charge up those hills.

Second, I've often asked for examples of people towing with small tow vehicles that have had RV accidents. I've done this on four seperate trailer forums and have never had a single report. I'm sure some have happened but I haven't seen one yet. I expect that people with smaller tow vehicles are more cautious.

Third, we will never know what's in the mind of car manufacturers but it's obvious that the typical American solution to towing, a truck or truck like vehicle, is not readily available in Europe. Obviously manufacturers want to sell you the biggest, most expensive vehicle they can. We have become conditioned to buying them. Gradually economics is forcing that to change.

I do recognize that there is much disbelief that we tow with a Honda CRV, 4 cylinder yet. Virtually every one who sees us towing says, "You really tow with a Honda?" "Does it have Honda's V6?"

I respond "We've towed every where with the Honda, for four years now." "No Honda does not sell a V6 for the Honda CRV." I do admit to them that we are not "chargers", that we drive slower than most and love the journey at least as much as the destination. We rarely exceed 150 miles in a day making us fresher than many other drivers on the road and never exceed 60 mph (usually less) giving us more opportunity to respond safely and stressing our vehicles less.

Safety is the issue.

Norm

[Ray N]

Do any of you know if the new standardized tow ratings are only for trucks, or will they also apply to SUVs, vans, etc.?

[cpaharley2008]

It appears to apply to all "tow vehicles" here is the link
Tow Ratings Finally Pass the Sniff Test - The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) - Automobile Magazine

the interesting aspect is they are now considering frontal area of the trailer, something the new Element RV is touting itself for meeting the new standard-here
http://www.goevergreenrv.com/products/113/Element

[Robin G]

Originally Posted by honda03842

Tow Vehicle Safety.

Second, I've often asked for examples of people towing with small tow vehicles that have had RV accidents. I've done this on four seperate trailer forums and have never had a single report. I'm sure some have happened but I haven't seen one yet. I expect that people with smaller tow vehicles are more cautious.


Safety is the issue.

Norm

Perhaps because people whom choose to do things incorrectly don't want to spread the word that they did and it came back to bite them............ Hmmmm?

There is actually a member here who has a friend who has been sued for towing above the capacity of his tow vehicle resulting in an accident. It's been posted many times. Though the example is not of "glass being towed small car"

There are thousands of examples of accidents caused due to improper tow vehicles, but statistically they are larger rv's (cause statistically there are more "larger rv's on the road than "glass rv's")

Just because you get away with it, doesn't make it correct. And certainly doesn't mean your never gonna have a problem. As I have said many a discussion here it's not right to advocate putting others in danger. (period!)


Frankly, I have issues with people exceeding the tow cap, but find it just plain crazy to ignore the wheel span of their tow vehicle. Really really really dumb! Don't believe me, just pray you can be delusional for all your towing experiences and never know what I am talking about....................................


The towing experience is about the tow vehicle having control of what is being towed at all times, not the other way around.

[Mike Magee]

Originally Posted by Robin G

There is actually a member here who has a friend who has been sued for towing above the capacity of his tow vehicle resulting in an accident. It's been posted many times....

I would like very much to read one or more of these posts. Could anyone please provide a link? Thanks.

[Donna D.]

Mike, here's one Pete (RIP) posted back in 2008: http://www.fiberglassrv.com/forums/f...its-33479.html

The whole thread provides excellent real life examples and lessons.

[Tom Trostel]

For those who feel that the owner's manual is to be followed word for word, tell me what you would do about these 2 quotes from my manual.

"Toyota recommends removing the trailer hitch whenever you are not towing a trailer"

"Do not exceed 72 km/h (45 mph) or the posted towing speed limit, whichever is lower."

Pages 410 and 413 of 2006 Toyota Sienna Owner's Manual

I have chosen to ignore both and it doesn't help my attitude about Toyota's towing advice.

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by Tom Trostel

For those who feel that the owner's manual is to be followed word for word, tell me what you would do about these 2 quotes from my manual.

"Toyota recommends removing the trailer hitch whenever you are not towing a trailer"

"Do not exceed 72 km/h (45 mph) or the posted towing speed limit, whichever is lower."

Pages 410 and 413 of 2006 Toyota Sienna Owner's Manual

I have chosen to ignore both and it doesn't help my attitude about Toyota's towing advice.

I remove my hitch when not towing, I hate getting grease on my leg.
As far as 45 mph, I recall all U-Hauls having that speed posted on their trailers. Maybe all persons towing, including tractor trailers should abide by that, if, and this is a big IF, everyone else abides by the 55 mph limit. A 10 mph difference should not be that disadvantageous for those with a trailer but would be dangerous with everyone else driving 70 mph! So everyone needs to slow down and we all could save a lot of gas.

[Tom Trostel]

I don't think Toyota is talking about removing the draw bar (stinger, ball mount). They're talking about crawling under the van and removing the hitch.
I don't mind driving 60 mph while towing but 45 mph seems extreme and is probably under the minimum speed limit on some highways. There are highways in Texas (I-10 in far west Texas) where the legal non-towing speed limit is 80 mph. So drivers approaching from behind would legally be closing at 35 mph faster than the tow vehicle.

[Robin G]

Mike, I am sorry I don't know the specific post and my time is limited due to Dh being in the hospital, but I do remember it was a post about towing, The member may have commented to the post where someone wanted to tow with a VW. If I get a bit I will check. But I know the "member" had also made comments before about the incident. Hopefully tonight I can get time to search for you. The "member" had actually at one time posted pic's/link to pics of the accident. If I remember correctly someone was hurt in the accident.

[Robin G]

What has happened to the search box? I can't find it. I use to be able to type in a topic and click and find post on that particular topic. but now I can't even find the search box.............. Help!

[honda03842]

The search function is at the very top of the page to the left of log out and under the words private messages.

Norm

[Robin G]

Hmmmmmm, not on my view. Were or were did my search box go? hmmmmmm!

[cpaharley2008]

We will look for it and return it to you when it is found......

[Donna D.]

This Robin?


Although I prefer to use: Google Custom Search - Fiberglass RV Forum Custom Search

[Frederick L. Simson]

Originally Posted by Robin G

Hmmmmmm, not on my view. Were or were did my search box go? hmmmmmm!

It's not in the Dark Blue band across the top of the page?

User CP - Trailer Registry - Gallery - FAQ - Community - Rally Calendar - New Posts - Search - Quick Links - Log Out

[Robin G]

Geezzzzzzzzzzzzz Louise, it would have bit me if it had been a snake! Ok, Thanks everyone! I will check for the post I was referring to and get back. I guess sitting at the hospital, bed side for 2 weeks has blurred my eyes! Seriously some days I wonder about me..............................

[Donna D.]

We're hear for you Robin.